In this episode of Lessons I Learned in Law Katy Beilin speaks to Janine Esbrand. Janine is Founder of Career Change Makers, where she coaches and teaches high-performing female professionals in Law and Finance how to take control of their careers and leverage their strengths to transition into more fulfilling roles, with confidence. Janine has a background as a lawyer, having practiced both in Law Firms and In-House, so is very well placed to advise Lawyers on these issues!
Guest host Katy is a Consultant at Heriot Brown and loves a chat! As someone keen to get involved in blogging and podcasting, we thought it made sense for her make her podcast debut in a discussion with Janine whose Coaching business supports strong working females. Katy and Janine sat down to have their conversation on International Women’s Day, which was very apt.
Janine shares the three lessons she has learned in law including:
Janine also shares the advice that she would give her children, should they ever decide to embark on a career in the law.
Presented by Katy Beilin of Heriot Brown Legal Recruitment.
Follow Heriot Brown:
Katy Beilin (00:03):
Hi, and welcome to Lessons I Learned in Law with me, Katy Beilin, consultant at Heriot Brown In-House Legal Recruitment. Like Scott, I too am a recovering lawyer, a private practice escapee and a fellow podcast enthusiast. For those newcomers Lessons I Learned in Law is the place to come to each week for conversations with the very best of the top legal minds as they break down their three key lessons they have learned was working in law. My guest today is Janine Esbrand - Executive Career and Strategy Coach and founder of Career Change Makers. Like me. Janine is a former disillusioned lawyer. Commended on her arguing abilities by her parents from the ripe old age of eight. And that in later in life falling head over heels in love with the genius legal drama series that was Ally McBeal. Janine felt certain a career in law was the right path for her.
Katy Beilin (00:58):
In her words, ‘I studied hard, went to law school and trained as a corporate lawyer’. some 10 years later and a legal career, which saw her practice at the lights of Shoesmiths, Stevens and Bolton, and later in-house at Prax Petroleum and tech startup Legal Edge, it was whilst Janine was on maternity leave with her first child that the disconnect became all too real. She realized that going back to those 16 hour days was just not an option. And moreover, she needed to be doing something to help people on a more personal level. She has now devised her own signature, the career change maker program, focusing on supporting individuals with finding career fulfillments. In short, she takes women from feeling frustrated and confused to energized and focused. She is a regular Ted talk keynote speaker and podcast host on career change, breakthrough and success. And I am super excited to be speaking here today and even more privileged to be recording this on International Women's Day. So indulge me a bit, but in the words of Elizabeth Day, Janine Esbrand welcome to Lessons I Learned in Law.
Janine Esbrand (02:03):
Oh, hi Katy. I'm so that amazing intro I'm like, ‘oh are you talking about me?! Thanks!!!’
Katy Beilin (02:13):
Oh, no. Well thank you for being here. Thank you so much, especially given this is my podcast debut and I'm, you know, all a little bit nervous and feeling out of my depth but super excited to have you here is my first guest.
Janine Esbrand (02:26):
You're doing so great. So great
Katy Beilin (02:28):
And happy international women's day to you.
Janine Esbrand (02:30):
Thank you. Happy international women's day. I'm so excited. It's ‘Break The bias’ is the theme this year, which I think is amazing. And so, yeah, I'm glad we're having this conversation today.
Katy Beilin (02:41):
Well I'm super excited to have you here. Love your profile and everything you stand for. And I think I said, when we first met a few months ago, you know, where were you four years ago when I was looking to get out of law and felt quite lost and didn't know what I was doing in private practice and was looking for someone just like you. So many synergies, I think, between our own career path. So when Scott, you know, asked if I wanted to, you know, chat with you on this podcast, I just, I just jumped it because yeah, I think you know what you are doing and, and, and, and the way in which you've transitioned is just amazing.
Janine Esbrand (03:34):
Yeah. It's so good. To connect and kind of hear your backstory and it's so similar to so many women and people that I speak to who struggle with what they need to do next in their careers. And so I'm glad you found a place that's working. But so many people e do feel stuck, which is why I love the work that I'm doing.
Katy Beilin (03:52):
No, absolutely. Absolutely. So you've obviously you were in private practice, you moved in-house… is the coaching now something you're doing full time?
Janine Esbrand (04:04):
Yes, it is now. So initially when I started my coaching practice, I developed a portfolio career. So I decided that I didn't wanna choose, and I still wanted to continue on my legal career path while starting my coaching practice. So I was doing both and it wasn't until the pandemic hit and I was juggling all the things. So working part-time as a lawyer still, in-house legal council, also working with coaching clients and homeschooling two children. I was like, yeah, this is little bit much I might need.
Katy Beilin (04:34):
And was this all mid-pandemic as well, you know, just to add another
Janine Esbrand (04:40):
Yeah. All of it crazy. So at that point I was like, okay, yes, I've built up the business enough. And I've, made the decision that this is where I wanna focus my energies. And so yes, I'm now doing it full time and have been since last year. So almost a year in April, it'll be a year.
Katy Beilin (04:57):
Wow. Amazing. For you, do you personally think it was you know, when you had your kids and, you know, kind of embark on motherhood that you recognized the need for the shift in what you were doing or you, is it something that was kind of, you know, with you prayer previously?
Janine Esbrand (05:50):
Yeah, I think it was prior to that initially when I qualified and my expectation and the reality was not aligned, so I kind of qualified and thought, oh, is this what it's gonna be for the rest of my legal career? This isn't really what I thought it was gonna be because Ally McBeal didn't make it seem this way. And
Janine Esbrand (06:12):
And that's when I came across coaching and did of my coaching certification on the side, but then it was very much, ‘yeah, this is just like a thing that I'm doing on the side. I'm still learning the law and I'm still growing’. It was when I had my son in 2016, that things really shifted from a like, ‘am I gonna do something about this’ perspective? Because up to that point, I was wanting to be partners doing the work, had my head down. I was like, ‘right, I'm just gonna do what I'm supposed to do. Cause I'm on this path’. My view, even when I was pregnant, I was like, ‘right, I'm gonna have my son and then I'll get a nanny and then I'll go back to wet full time and I'll just keep cracking on’. And then I had him and then I met him and I was like ‘I don’t wanna leave my baby!!!’ so it was while I was on maternity leave that I started to think, ‘do I actually wanna go back to working those sixteen hour days?’
Janine Esbrand (07:02):
No. Well then what else would I do? And I think there was something about becoming a Mum that empowered me, because I just was thinking if I can, like, co-create an actual human being and this human came out of my body. Like what else could I do ?!! I felt so empowered, whereas before I was very much like, well, I've gotta do what I'm supposed to do. And after that I was like, no, this is my life. And I'm making a decision and I don't want to do 16 hour days. but I was still doing the coaching on the side. So it was different milestones in my life that shifted my perspective about what I wanted to do and then what would be possible for me as well.
Katy Beilin (07:43):
Did you find that kind of you know, recognizing the need to transition a little bit daunting? Cause I just personally remember thinking, okay, I hate being in private practice. I would love it if a bus would roll over my foot tomorrow. So, you know, I wasn't in any danger. I, you know, in terms of, you know, my life was, was safe and secure, but I couldn't actually physically, you know, get into the office. But at the same time, you know, had my, my parents' voices in my head coming, ‘you've trained as a lawyer, you've gotta see it through and you know, you've qualified now and it can only get better’, but actually just knew that this wasn't the life of me. But at the same time sat at my desk, thinking, ‘I actually dunno what I'm, what I'd be good at’ as in like, I'm not quite sure how I transition and if I wanted to go into, I don't know, PR then I'd have to probably take up a internship or, you know start from scratch. And, and, and for me that was the biggest issue. Like I knew I had this really, you know, a skillset that I was proud of. But I couldn't really see how I was gonna be able to use it. And, and, and, and where it'll be best, you know, deployed if you like.
Janine Esbrand (08:49):
Yeah. Yeah. I didn't, I didn't have that experience in the same way that many of my clients do. So what you've described is how many people feel like, ‘what else would I do’? Because at the point where I was like, okay, I'm not gonna go back to working 16 nowadays. I didn't really have my full plan. I just knew what I didn't want. And oftentimes starting with what you don't want can be where you need to start when you can't figure out where I'm going. So I was like, ‘I know I’m not gonna do 16 hour days’. And I just decided that I was just gonna hand in my notice and say, I'm not going back without a plan. And I don't necessarily advocate for that. But I didn't have a plan. And then what happened was one of the clients that I had been working with while I was before I went on maternity leave, they were looking for an in-house legal council and someone's coming part-time.
Janine Esbrand (09:31):
So they were like, ‘what's Janine doing, if she's not coming back to the firm’? And so one of the partners reached out and was like, ‘remember that deal, you're working on. I know you're not coming back to us, but they need a lawyer. Do you wanna go work for them?’ And I was like, ‘OK’. So it literally worked out like that. But because I had like the coaching thing going on the side and I, I explored that from a place of curiosity. I explored that from, I think this sounds like something I wanna do. And then I went to a two day training and then I kind of immersed myself in understanding the industry. And then I did my certification on the side. So it was like a low, a low risk way of exploring whether this could be a path that I would wanna pursue. And initially I just enjoyed doing it. And then as I was looking at my career, I was like, actually I could see how I could make this into my main thing. And so it kind of happened more naturally than like, ‘right. I'm deciding I'm going from being a lawyer’. It was like a transition.
Katy Beilin (10:26):
Yeah. And I think, I mean, given that I now kind of specialize in placing lawyers in-house. A lot of them, you know, coming from private practice, it's a skillset that I recognise is pertinent to be able to be successful as an in-house lawyer is you've gotta take a bit of risk and it's not something that's really instilled in you as a private practice lawyer. But if you have that risk taker ability, then naturally the kind of the business acumen kind of follows. And I think that's really key to being successful, you know, in-house and I guess just in, in future careers
Let's kick off with your lessons that you've learned in Law. I'd, I'd love to hear about lesson number one.
Janine Esbrand (11:06):
Yeah. So I think I'll actually, I'll start with one that I think aligned with what you just shared there around being adaptable as an in-house lawyer. The lesson that I learned when I went from private practice to in-house and I moved into an industry where I remember the first week I was in oil and gas and everybody was throwing around these acronyms. And I was like, ‘I don't know what you guys are talking about. Can you just slow down and explain to me what this means’? And I remember feeling like, ‘I don't know what I'm doing here. I don't even understand the language’ . But it didn't take long to kind of pick up what they meant. And what I realised is it wasn't so much that they were hiring me because I knew everything, but they were hiring me because I had the ability to figure out the answers.
Janine Esbrand (11:47):
And I think that's one of the biggest lessons that I learned. I think, as you go through your career, it's easy to feel like you're not equipped. It's like, ‘well, I don’t know this’, or ‘the client's gonna ask me questions and I don’t know’, but actually, because you are trained as a lawyer because your brain works a certain way now, it doesn't matter if you don’t know the answer. What matters is you lean into your ability to figure it out. And when you are in house and anything crosses your desk and everybody in the business expects you and know stuff, because you are the lawyer, ultimately you have to lean into that and say, ‘okay, I don’t know the answer right now, but I know how to figure it out’. And I think that it's really important to recognize that particularly if you are considering making a move in your career, don't discount yourself. Cause you don't know, and you don't tick all the boxes, ask yourself, do I have a track record of being able to figure things out? Yes I do. Okay. Well therefore I do it going forward. So that's my number one lesson.
Katy Beilin (12:38):
Yeah, totally. And I think in order to be able to find out that information, you've also gotta have kind of instilled in you the skill set that allows you to be inquisitive and ask questions and I guess, you know, show up and, and, and, you know, be open and honest when you recognize you don't have the information and you need to do that information gathering. And I think those people skills are, you know, really important. And again, you know, a lot of the time, especially as a trainee and as a junior associate, you know, I was made to feel, I had to have all the information and it had to come from me and if I didn't have it, you know, then I was failing and, you know, I hadn't, you know, concentrated hard enough in those lectures at, at law school.
Katy Beilin (13:16):
So yeah, they talk a lot don't they about the T-shaped lawyer and the ability obviously to have the, you know, the academics and the knowledge, having studied and, and, and gathered all that information and case law, but also recognizing the need to just be quite engaging and a people's person and, you know, not afraid to put your hand up and ask questions, but also be skilled enough to develop those business relationships so that you can, you know, then naturally just gather information from the, from the right people as, and when you need it.
Janine Esbrand (13:56):
That leads nicely onto my lesson. Number two, which is the power and importance of networking. So when you are first starting out, I remember being in, you know, in, in my trainee lawyer seat and hearing the associates talk about BD and business development and networking. And I was like, ‘OK, yeah, I'm gonna go to these events. They said, I need to go to the events and I need to collect business cards and yeah, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go’. And I would go, and I'd have a few conversations, I'd collect the business cards, and then I'd go back to my desk and then just have business cards on my desk and be like, ‘Errrrrr’
Speaker 3 (14:33):
Janine Esbrand (14:37):
My measure of success was how many business cards was I able to connect on that evening. And I was like, ‘well, what's the point of this’? Like, ‘I don't really know what I'm supposed to be doing here’. And it wasn't until later on in my career. And particularly after I started my coaching practice that I recognized what I was supposed to be doing, and networking is essentially about building relationships. And if you can be the person who builds relationships, both within your organization and externally, it's so much easier for you to get the job done. So I remember in, as, as council, like I made sure that I went around and understood what was going on in different departments and actually made connections with different people. And so it made my life easier when I was chasing someone up for something, or if I needed an extension on being able to review a contract, I had a relationship with the person.
Janine Esbrand (15:23):
And so it made life easier. And so the big lesson there is- look at how you can build relationships and how can add value to other people. And ultimately those people, at some point will help you to get to where you wanna go. And the more people, you know, the more opportunity there is for like you to be visible opportunities to come out or you to make connections with people. I just think it's so, so valuable, but in legal circles, I don't think that education of junior lawyers done in the right way. It's like you’re just told to network!
Katy Beilin (15:55):
No I agree,
Janine Esbrand (15:57):
Nobody understands, like, how does this actually fit into the bigger picture? Why are we doing this? How does this bring in business? What's the point of me doing it from a personal perspective, because there's benefit for the firm, but then also for you as an individual - all of that is missed. I'm like, where, why did, why didn't anyone tell me this?!!!
Katy Beilin (16:15):
You’re so right.
Janine Esbrand (16:17):
When I finally realized, and then penny dropped me, I was like, so why are they not teaching this at law school? Or like, why did we not learn this? And so I think that piece is so, so important and, and yeah, massively overlooked.
Katy Beilin (16:29):
Yeah, absolutely. You bought back some not-so-fond memories. I just remember, you know, being kind of given business cards upon qualifying as a lawyer and on the one hand, it was like a right of passage. You know, I had my name on a card and it was gold and embossed. And at the, you know, on the other hand, it was filled with dread, you know, the notion of like approaching these complete strangers at these networking events. And then within the very first few seconds handing over my card, it all just felt so uncomfortable. And so unnatural, you know, I think back now, like the LinkedIn generation of, of junior lawyers, don't quite know how good they've got it because, you know, it just allows people to, to meet in a lot more relaxed fashion. But yeah, I think, yeah, having that knowledge beforehand, would've been so, so, so helpful.
Katy Beilin (17:12):
And if anything, if I could, I guess if you and I could impart anything onto junior lawyers now, it would be that, you know, if you start to build relationships from an early stage, then it does help you, especially when you try to make that transition in-house, because you're not siloed when you're in house. You know, you, you, you work in the legal team, but you know, you are gonna be liaising with, you know, different business units. You're gonna to be dealing with internal, external stakeholders, instructing council, whether it be here or abroad. So yeah, you've gotta have that kind of interpersonal skillset that you've gotta have that, you know, compassion and empathy and just clear communication skills, which definitely should have been communicated to us from a, from a younger, a younger age, different stage in our careers. So yeah, thank, thank you for that, that reminder that I no longer have to give out business cards. It's, it's, it's a nice feeling to have.
That takes us nicely on to your third lesson.
Janine Esbrand (18:10):
Yeah. So my third lesson is something that I've been reflecting on recently, and it is that your destination becomes your starting line. So often when you set goals for your career, it's like, ‘Right, firstly, I wanna be a trainee and then I wanna become an associate. And then I wanna make…’ it's like you set the goal, but the goal, the goal post is always moving. So don't expect that when you arrive at the goal that you're gonna be like, ‘okay, I'm satisfied’ because as lawyers, you are ambitious, right? Like hard work in high achievers. And so I think accepting that I'm setting a goal and when I get there, I will assess and see how things go. And then I'm likely to set another goal can help to who relieve some of the, I think sometimes the disappointment, like you feel like I felt like right.
Janine Esbrand (18:55):
Once I arrive at qualifying as a lawyer, everything will be great. And then I arrived and I was like, oh, I'm here, but what else do I have to do now? And so I think that's a big lesson that I learned instead of us trying to map out like the, the, the next 5, 10 years would be like, this is exactly what I'm gonna be doing is like hit the milestone. Assess. Is this still where I wanna be? Is this still what I want to be doing? Particularly because as you're on your journey, life happens, you might become a parent, get married, you might wanna change and move to another country. Like life's still happening alongside your career. And so recognize that whilst you're setting goals you’re in this season of life, but when you get to that goal, you're gonna be in another season. And so it's OK to take, stock and be like, ‘is this still the path I wanna be at, be on’? And if not, I get to leverage all the work that I've done and all the skills that I've gained to pivot and move in a different direction.
Katy Beilin (19:46):
Yeah. ‘Pivot’ in the words of Ross Gellar from friends!! You've gotta be able to pivot. Totally. I love that.
Looking back on that now, what, what kind of words of advice would you, do you think you would've benefited from? I f you could go back and tell yourself one key piece of advice to help you recognize that further down the line, you would be able to pivot in something. What would it be?
Janine Esbrand (21:08):
I think I would just say, be open minded. I had such tunnel vision when I first started and I thought I had it all figured out. Be open minded and recognize that you are doing- do the best that you can, where you are right now, but it's okay to take stock, pause and see whether or not this is still working for you.
Like it's okay. I think I just needed permission because I had in my head that I've made a decision and this is the path that I'm going down and I've invested so much time and energy. And so I just have to keep going. That is kind of the, that I had and I just had blinkers on. So I didn't even know what other opportunities were out there. I didn't even- it was just all about the law. So being open-minded and, you know, being open to meeting people, speaking to people outside of like where you are is so, so, valuable.
Katy Beilin (22:03):
But don't you think as well, that in, you know, say 2022, we're in such different place to where we were say, when you and I were qualifying back in - and I qualified in 2009 or 2010 - I just feel, you know, the, the generation of lawyers now just have a lot more, you know, access. There's a lot more opportunity that their fingertips, I'm not saying we were denied, but there's just, you know, in this virtual world, you know, you could log into a webinar in your free time in the evening and, you know, dip into a lot of different areas or specialisms or, you know, outside interests. I just, I don't feel we had access to that. Maybe back then, or maybe as you said, it was just tunnel vision. Do you think it's a mix or…
Janine Esbrand (22:42):
I think now it's easier. It is easier. However, I don't know that people are leveraging it as much. So for example, using LinkedIn, you can develop your personal brand and be seen and be noticed within your industry on LinkedIn as a junior lawyer. We couldn't do that before. But the issue is, the people who are supervising the junior lawyers, aren't doing those things. So they're not likely to be like, ‘Hey, you need to get on LinkedIn and you need to do these things’ because they're not doing it themselves. And so junior lawyers have an opportunity, but they also need to be trailblazers in it and say, do you know what, like ‘we are in a new generation, we're in a new time where digital is where it's at. So I can leverage that’. So if you are a junior lawyer right now, instead of just doing the status quo and like doing things, how it's always been done, recognize where in a new season, recognize we're in a new era and use that to your advantage because we didn't have that access. I wish we did, but we didn't. But if you have it now and are not using it, then you're kind of in the same place that we were in.
Katy Beilin (23:45):
Yeah. And I think as well today people are encouraged to, you know, not shy away or I guess, conceal personal interests they have outside of law. Whereas again, back in the day, like, if I wasn't seen to be, you know, really engaged in like current affairs and like, you know, what was happening at the Royal Courts of Justice, I felt that I wasn't deemed, you know, or, or gonna be recognized as a high flyer and wasn't gonna be, you know, up for promotion and that type of thing. Whereas now, you know, like I've got an interest in interior design on the side and, you know, I'm a mum for three girls and LinkedIn, and I guess just my career in general allows me, especially with me speaking every day to candidates and clients - allows me to just really bring that kind of personal touch and, you know, my own kind of like personal, you know, journey to work to what I do.
Katy Beilin (24:43):
Whereas I feel like back in the day we weren't allowed to do that. I wonder if you agree?
I would just really encourage lawyers looking, you know, to kind of, to, to maybe to make that move from private practice, to in-house and beyond to, showcase it, you know?
Janine Esbrand (25:05):
Yeah, absolutely. And you have an opportunity to, to be like, ‘what type of lawyer do I wanna be’? Like, there's nothing that says you can't blend your interest with what you do. So, for example, the last role that I had before I went full time in my business, was working in-house for a startup and their focus was professional development. And they had a SaaS product around professional development. When that role came up and I was like, head hunted for it. I was like, ‘this is perfect cos it aligns my interest in coaching and professional development with the law’. Part of the reason why they hired me was because I was also a coach and I had that understanding of the industry that they were in and I had the legal side. So if you are like making a movie in house, but you have an interest in a certain area, you can align your interest with like the type of organization that you go and work for. And then all of that knowledge that you have, that's outside of the law, you get to blend with your legal expertise and that really helps you to stand out as a candidate. And you're gonna be interested in the contracts reviewing
You're gonna love speaking for the business. You're gonna love understanding how everything works, cause you're interested in it. And then you get to bring that legal skillset. It's like, ‘why would you not do that’? And so if you go through your career, and you find those areas where I'm actually interested in, - you get the opportunity to come about your legal career from a place of intention rather than just, ‘oh, I'm just gonna do what people tell me I should do’.
Katy Beilin (26:35):
Totally. I remember an opportunity came up. Actually, this was before I decided that I was gonna leave private practice. I was trying to make the move in-house, but babies and, and mortgages got in the way. But an opportunity team up - Designers Guild were looking for an in-house lawyer. And I was like, ‘oh my God, this, this is the dream combination. Like, it wouldn't even feel like work’, you know, at the end of the day. But then yeah, I was pregnant with my twins and it, it never, it, it didn't happen. It didn't materialize, but actually it's something that I always ask candidates kind of, you know, do you have a sector focus and is there an industry that you're really interested in? And a lot of people, a lot of the time people say, ‘oh, I'm, I'm, I'm pretty open. You know, I'm, I, I don't care as long as it's kind of general commercial work or if I'm doing more IP or’, but I think if you, if, if you are working in, in an area that you're really passionate about and feel invested in, it makes it all that much more enjoyable. And I think at the end of the day - easy too!
Janine Esbrand (27:25):
Yeah, I think it is like, I, the difference between when I was inhouse council at the oil and gas company versus the, the company that focussed on professional development, like I was all in on those contracts, I was like, ‘yeah, lemme look at what we're doing here. Let me strategise!’ whereas the oil and gas I was doing my work. It was like, oh
Katy Beilin (27:43):
Janine Esbrand (27:45):
And so I think it does make a huge difference if that interest element is, is there as well.
Katy Beilin (27:48):
Yeah. And one final question be kind of four week before we wrap up. Cause I know you've, you've got a busy day ahead, but on International Women's Day you mentioned you've got, you've got two kids. Haven't you've got a son and a daughter.
Janine Esbrand (28:04):
Yes I do.
Katy Beilin (28:06):
If your daughter came to you and said, ‘mommy, I think I wanna be a lawyer like you, when I'm older’, what, what would you say?
Janine Esbrand (28:14):
She's, she's got all of the qualities for it. She's very, yeah. I would say yes, you absolutely like you wanna be a lawyer. You can absolutely be a lawyer. I would ask her to really think about why she's drawn to it because I feel like a lot of people go into law saying ‘I wanna help people. I wanna make a difference in the world’, but then they go into practice areas where they're not necessarily doing that. And so I would, I would have her really think about, you know, what is it about law that you're drawn to and really explore that. But I would act absolutely encourage her if that's a path that she wanted to take to do it, but I'd make sure that she educated around like what she's actually getting into. I think that would be my advice.
Katy Beilin (29:04):
Yeah. I think empowering is, is good. Is, is key in there. Yes. Here’s to successful, brave women everywhere.
Janine Esbrand (29:14):
Katy Beilin (29:17):
Well Janine, thank you so, so much. Thank you for joining me for today. And sharing your words of wisdom and lessons that you've learned in law with me really appreciate your time.
Janine Esbrand (29:28):
My absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. And I look forward to stay connected.
Katy Beilin (29:34):
And thank you all for listening to this episode of Lessons I Learned in Law. For more information on all all our guests, please head to heriotbrown.com/podcast. I'm Katy Beilin and I'll see you next time. Thanks for listening.