Adam Baldwin on knowing, and speaking to your audience

In this episode of Lessons I Learned in Law, Scott Brown speaks to Adam Baldwin. 

Adam's career has comprised a broad mixture of legal and business positions. He now works as Head of Functions and Business Engagement for the banking group BNP Paribas. Adam has launched, invested in and advised various start-ups across multiple sectors, including technology, sports, fashion and entertainment.

Outside of the office, he is passionate about youth education and sport, volunteering with various initiatives including acting as a Non-Executive Director and Trustee for the NET Academies Trust and volunteering with the Saracens Foundation.

Adam shares the three lessons he has learned in law including:

• Tailor your message to your audience.
• Compassion is key.
• Make your own luck. If you have a particular ambition or goal you want to work towards – let people know!

Presented by Scott Brown of Heriot Brown Legal Recruitment.

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This episode of Lessons I Learned in Law is brought to you by Beamery.

Beamery is an AI-powered talent platform, designed to hire candidates faster, develop the skills of your workforce, and increase employee retention.

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Transcript

Scott Brown  (0:03)  

Hi and welcome to Lessons I Learned in Law with me, Scott, founder of Heriot Brown In-House Legal Recruitment. I'm an ex lawyer turned in-house legal recruitment specialist, and my job puts me in the privileged position of having daily conversations with top legal minds. So, I launched Lessons I Learned in Law to share some of these conversations and provide some inspiration, or some insights to other lawyers. Each episode is an open and frank conversation, hopefully with some with some laughs and other things along the way, and centred around key three lessons from my guess careers. To recording today at the beginning of September, what feels like the end of end of summer drawing to a bit of a close. I'm delighted to be sitting down today with Adam Baldwin. Hi, Adam.

Adam Baldwin  (0:52)

Scott, thanks for having me.

Scott Brown  (0:54)

A quick introduction. Adams currently leading European bank BNP Paribas, and he's head of functions and business engagement. BNP Paribas has an international reach with presence in 74 countries. Now Adam trained at Allen and Overy, before moving to the IP and tech team at slaughter and me on qualification, as in house career began in 2016, when he moved to the AP, an IT team at BNP Paribas. And what some of our listeners may find particularly interesting is that in 2017, he was promoted across the business heading up a team of lawyers and analysts to act as a key engagement point between the business lines and controlled functions of the bank. So he's worked in both legal and quasi non legal rules. So welcome to the podcast, Adam, great to have you and to sit down with you today.

Adam Baldwin  (1:46)

Thanks very much and excited to talk through some lessons.

Scott Brown  (1:50)

Great look at looking forward to hearing about them. On each episode. We also like to get under the under the skin of our guests and find out a bit more about them from outside of their legal career. So as a bit of a teaser, Adam Adams shared with me he once had a near miss with one of Britain's toughest entrepreneurs, Alan Sugar, keen to hear more about that later, he enjoys challenging and pushing himself in new challenges. And he's about to jump into one of those this year. He's also a father of two kids, which he feels is defining his career. So I got back in touch with Adam recently when I'd seen his face pop up in an article in the financial terms where he was talking about working through the pandemic. And you've recently returned to work following paternity leave Adam?

Adam Baldwin  (2:38)

Yeah, that's right. It's been it's been wonderful. Actually, I think I sort of alluded to in the article, I'd be on my foot when my son was born back in 2018. I was the classic dad taking those minimum two weeks straight back in the office straight back to work, because I felt that was sort of the dumb thing. But it's been much nicer this time around. When my daughter was born, November last year, I actually embraced the shared paternal paternity leave policies at BMP and over the past year have taken 10 weeks off, which hasn't been a holiday. It's been a lot of hard work. It's been an amazing experience with both my children and it provided great opportunities for my wife as well to, to do some extra work, follow some of her own projects and bring a bit of a quality to the household, which has been great in itself.

Scott Brown  (3:23)

Amazing. How was that during lockdown? How much of the time was spent during the 2021, lockdown, whatever, whatever stage are pretty

Adam Baldwin  (3:31)

much, pretty much all of it. I mean, I think it was essential for me to be around to be honest, because with my son's nursery shut down, he needed a lot of entertainment. So yeah, we were kept busy. That's for sure. Good, good.

Scott Brown  (3:43)

I was your wife. Was your wife off work for that whole time as well?

Adam Baldwin  (3:47)

Yeah, but for the majority, but it's been quite nice, especially in the last sort of couple of months, she's been able to return to work as a teacher during sort of a few days here and there. And I think that's given her a bit of a break as well.

Scott Brown  (3:59)

Yeah. Amazing. Yes, great experience something to jump into. So we're just gonna jump into the lessons and the lessons that you've learned in your in your life and career. If you could tell us about your first lesson, Adam, that'd be great.

Adam Baldwin  (4:14)

Of course, yes. So my first one is tailor your message to your audience. And I'll start with a great piece of advice I got when I was a trainee on a common eBay. And that is a lawyer won't write less than five pages, the business won't read more than five sentences, which I think is quite true. And it remains apt in virtually every business I've worked in since. I mean, obviously, jokes aside, I think it kind of provides some useful insight to the fact that the legal profession can be quite different to the business and I think it's something we've always got to keep at the front of our mind when providing advice to different clients, different colleagues, that you have to be adaptable. You have to tailor you know that that advice just to suit to suit the room effectively. And I think obviously, in my current position where I effectively sit across both legal and business, I see that on a very Pasadena daily occurrence that quite often we will receive very long legal advice. And then that gets sent to the business. And quite often they're like, is this a yes? Is this a no, can I do my project? What's the advice? When I think, you know, if sometimes as, as lawyers, we assess the situation and figure out first and foremost, you know, what advice they're looking for. I think that can be some of the most effective tool in your career as well, to be honest, because that you know, that the business respond well to lawyers that understand them and know how to communicate with them. So it's something that, you know, I deal with on a daily basis, and I think is one of the best bits of advice I can give, especially to junior lawyers, as they progress through their career,

Scott Brown  (5:53)

that's really good and filtering that to know what the business outcome is invaluable out of interest was that a lawyer or a business stakeholder that had first shared that?

Adam Baldwin  (6:04)

it's funny, actually, because it was an ex lawyer who had moved across into the business at eBay, and I think, quite a bit of ex law, if I'm completely honest, I think they didn't really like many of their legal colleagues. It's very sound advice, nonetheless. And I mentioned, I think, a very mature a great example that I'd seen recently at one of the lawyers in BMP, who's completely got this assessment, you know, perfectly, they had a massive project that was effectively looking for clear advice, whether it could go ahead or not. But within this email, chain, it within this email chain, you've got a whole range of people, you've got a senior business people that are in charge of the budget, you've got lawyers, you've got compliance personnel, you've got risk analysts. And we're all looking for different kinds of advice. So this lawyer here effectively gave three different sets of advice tailored to you know, that the people on the email chain, the first line was, this project can go ahead, brilliant. So if you're the senior guy in charge of it, you've just got to greenlight great, you don't need to read them. And then the second paragraph had sort of a little bit more elaboration of the commercial risks linked to the legal analysis. And the final paragraph was, you know, the lawyers bread and butter, full legal analysis, you know, very in depth, very clear. But, you know, understanding that not everyone on the email chain is probably going to read it. And I really liked that, because I created that audit trail for the lawyer to know that they've, you know, covered themselves, they've given the correct advice, but it's so practical and accessible for, you know, the senior business personnel who just won't know the answer. So I thought that was a really interesting insight to how a house lawyer can adapt and understand their clients. Yeah.

Scott Brown  (7:50)

I think it sounds like a great way of tailoring the message as you said to the to the audience and get making sure it's measures hitting the right notes. And there's an exact summary there for someone who doesn't need to get bogged down. Exactly. You mentioned you learn now you pick that up on a secondment early sounded like it was early on in your career? How important do you think that is for a junior lawyer to have that exposure to the business?

Adam Baldwin  (8:19)

100% I mean, I think I was very lucky, actually, throughout my private practice career that it was sort of peppered with, in our comments, because I had three months at eBay, and then later on in my career, had best part of a year at Vodafone. And for me personally, especially where I've ended up being, you know, be at either a very commercially minded lawyer or a very legally minded business personnel, however you put it, those comments were just so essential. And I think it also depends on your, you know, your, your route to law to begin with. I mean, I think mine was the classic example of a three year undergrad law degree strange VPC training contract lined up straight into the training contract. So aside from you know, working in a supermarket and selling ice creams to the National Trust, I had no real business experience to speak of. I thought that was good fun actually selling ice cream. I think it's particularly relevant to a legal career. But I think that those comments themselves, you're so right, Scott, because it was that initial exposure to, you know, running a business and understanding how the legal advice actually impacts the business. Because I think, within private practice, obviously, you are the you're the revenue generator, the business is legal advice. But once you get the in house experience, you realise that legal advice is really a facilitator for the business. I mean, in simplest terms, it's you know, lots of go or no goes. So I think getting that experience for again, junior lawyers especially, it's so valuable because you understand the value of your advice and really what it should be trying to achieve.

Scott Brown  (9:56)

Yeah, otherwise, I guess you're giving it in a bit of a vacuum that you're legal advice as totally as the advice and not seeing the not seeing the bigger picture can be quite or seeing the bigger picture can be a bit of a challenge agreed.

Adam Baldwin  (10:07)

And I think it's really true, especially as junior lawyers, I think, well, for my experience, at least, I gave a lot of sort of piecemeal advice that was very specific to a project, give the advice, and perhaps you'd never hear back on whether that advice had been taken or how it impacted the project. Because, again, from the client perspective, they want to pay for that particular advice. And then from that point forward, they're, you know, they're bringing it back in house, they're cost saving, you know, they're letting their in House lawyers run it. So, again, getting into those businesses, it's so invaluable. Whether or not you eventually move in house, I think in house, the comments themselves are integral to progressing well, and understanding the commercials.

Scott Brown  (10:56)

Moving on to lesson two.

Adam Baldwin  (11:00)

Lesson two, yeah. So again, very simple one, but it's compassion is key. And again, it sounds very basic, but from my perspective, just being nice, being kind, being considerate of others, it's one of the most effective things you can do in your career. And I speak from someone who probably had a very cushy private practice career filled with nice people who, partners that supported me, no one shouted at me, not really too late nights, hardly any weekend work. So but perhaps I'm from a very privileged position of dealing with nice people. But I think that the fact I've received such you know, good treatment from the partners I work for, especially at sorters. I think it's made me a better lawyer myself, it's made me a better person, it's made me realise how effective you know, kindness and compassion can be especially when people are starting out in their careers. You know, a small example actually, I remember, I just moved across to slaughter so as an MQ, you know, really trying my hardest to impress because, you know, as a fresh face. And I think sometimes when you're overeager as a junior lawyer, you can rush into things instead of, you know, sitting back understanding, you know, the project and what advice is required, you just want to do as quickly as possible. I remember being in one of the partners, rooms, going through my advice, and quickly realising I'd completely messed it up. My advice was rubbish. And I'm like, Oh, my God, I'm gonna get my, my face ripped off. And the partner, understandably, was not impressed with the work but was so kind about it, I felt worse. It was almost like, you know, a father saying, I'm not angry, I'm disappointed that sort of, yeah, but it stuck with me because I was fully expecting to be like, Oh, I've messed up here. They're not going to be understanding, but it's complete opposite. It was, okay, let's sit down for an hour, go through lists, let's figure out you know, where you've gone wrong, how we can improve. And that support just, you know, really fired me up and thought, hey, well, they actually care about me, and not just the work. And it's something I've tried to take on with my own teams as well. I mean, hopefully, and if any of them are listening, they'll think I'm a relatively nice person. And, you know, compassionate to, you know, anything they're going through. But, yeah, I think it just, it builds really good team ethos, and definitely helps in the long run.

Scott Brown  (13:25)

Yeah, it must help establishing bonds and trust and that that time that the partner gave to you in doing that, you're looking up to that individual. And yeah, knowing that you can learn that you can trust them, and no doubt they get they get stuff back from that as well. So have you felt that translate in the last 18 months during lockdown, there's been anything that the banks done in particular that you've done, in particular,

Adam Baldwin  (13:52)

I think we were quite lucky within our team because we were already we already operate out of about four locations, our wider team of about 3040 individuals. So we were already quite used to remote working and sort of building that relationship with the team sort of over video calls and the like, but I think it was a learning curve for the bank to figure out okay, how do we, you know, ensure that people's mental health is supported and, you know, the sort of softer skills that perhaps could have been overlooked in a fully office based environment? But I think I think they've done a lot actually. I mean, initially like most businesses, it was the quick here's a subscription to the car map that will help and then it quickly developed into something more substantive and looking a lot more from the healthcare aspect to see you know, if people needed support, there's actually you know, professional support out there for us. They've done a few other things that have been quite fun actually as well. We had this wellbeing fund where they said we could spend 250 pounds on absolutely anything we like if it helps our wellbeing I think the two exceptions you couldn't buy tobacco or alcohol so you know those your vices I'm afraid that was out of scope. Oh,

Scott Brown  (15:04)

yeah, good, good. They should they should have done.

Adam Baldwin  (15:07)

Yeah. And I think I'm on the personnel side, it's, again, I've been really impressed by, you know, a lot of management response to, you know, to this setup, especially given there's been so on so much unknown over these past few months about, you know, when we're going to return and, and the like, so I think that's been a key part of it as well. I mean, with my current line manager, every call we have the first 10 minutes are just how are you doing? How's the family? You know, it's, it's genuine as well. So I think, you know, that's a really key part of, of, you know, feeling, you know, as a team and feeling supported,

Scott Brown  (15:42) 

what advice would you give to someone, if they didn't feel they had that support or compassion from their peers or their seniors,

Adam Baldwin  (15:51)

I think first and foremost, especially if it's coming from your manager, I'd be brave and just flag it up with them. Because I think a lot of people do put on. And it's a bit of bravado, especially in sort of management positions, where perhaps they're still reading from, you know, old management books that you've got to be this alpha kind of figure, you know, you've got to show your authority to, to progress. And obviously, that's outdated to begin with, it's not particularly effective anymore. But I do have faith in people. And I think if you raise the fact that someone is either, you know, not supporting you, or, you know, making you feel anxious, or whatever it may be, I honestly believe if if you can have that conversation with, with your manager, whoever it is that's causing this, you know, human to human, most people are empathetic at heart and will probably take that on board. I mean, from my perspective, if anyone in my team raised concerns about my behaviour or something, I'd said, you know, my initial reaction be, I'll be sad will, gosh, I've sort of messed up here. And I'd hoped that that would, you know, work with most people. I mean, obviously, if it's, if it can't be solved with a quick conversation, you'd hope again, there'd be mechanisms within your organisation that can give you that support. I mean, a BMP, for example, they've got everything from, you know, anonymous helplines to, you know, sort of counselling that's on demand 24/7. And, you know, obviously, within the HR manuals as lots of different support mechanisms. So I think it's definitely there. And I think, actually, it's a really good point, Scott, it's taking that action to deal with these things as well. Don't sit in silence, because in this day and age, every company is setting out genuine steps to support people. So I think that's something that we should all embrace.

Scott Brown  (17:39)

Excellent. So we mentioned away from lessons for a little minute we mentioned or I mentioned earlier, that you had a close call with Alan Sugar. So tell me more about that, please.

Adam Baldwin  (17:52)

I mean, honestly, I don't know what I was thinking at the time when I was asked to tell you a little story. When I went to the first interview. Clearly, I just finished LPC had loads of time on my hands. I think I deferred my training contract for a few months, I was like, oh, eight months, basically, to just a mess about and have fun. And so thought would be a great idea to apply for the apprentice, and surprisingly, got a call up for the initial sort of interview days. And there was me thinking, Oh, well, I'll make I'll make myself stand out. Everyone else was dressed in a sort of a black or grey suit, you know, very muted and understated. I turned up in a white linen suit with a pink shirt on because I thought that will make me stand out. They'll love me. And it kind of backfired. Because they did. They were like, Who is this idiot, let's push him forward to the next the next rounds of interviews. And he managed to sort of black my way through all of that. Pretend that I had, you know, this massive business acumen as a 20 year old who as I said had just been selling ice creams at National Trust property and managed to get to the final stages and they called me and said we'd like to do the test the test video shoots I think they narrowed it down to maybe like 30 of us and it was only then once the reality hit that I've got the training contracts in from a no I was looking through the terms the thing is there anything they can cancel the training contract if you make a tip out of yourself at a national TV, is that a reason to withdraw your employment? So I think yeah, a conversation with my dad. He basically said stop being an idiot. Do your proper job. And that kind of made the decision for me I think

Scott Brown  (19:30)

waiting up wait, shoot, that must be that must be up there as well as a sure-fire way to get invited back to the boardroom.

Adam Baldwin  (19:37)

Definitely. I mean, if only just to be you know, get some gentle ribbing because you're wearing something as ridiculous as that to a business meeting. But as I said, I was young and stupid, but now I'm old and stupid.

Scott Brown  (19:51)  

Did you look at that series and think what could have what might have been?

Adam Baldwin  (19:55)

Yeah, because it was the first one where instead of winning the job it was It was a bit it was setting up a business. I think it was the inventor that that one I think was a guy called Tom. And he was super brainy, super smart. So, again, I would have been that classic lawyer that just gets kicked out in the first episode, because it always happens. Who is a lawyer or a barrister? Isn't it that? That never progress? Is that far? So?

Scott Brown  (20:18)

Yeah. The editing the editing? I don't know. To be fair, it's yeah, I'm not sure that as bigger bloggers as they as their beta to be. Oh, yeah. Oh, well, I'd love to see some footage of the of the addition, the addition footage, that'd be that'd be good to see sometime.

Adam Baldwin  (20:36)

Maybe it's on YouTube somewhere else, I'll have to look for it one day.

Scott Brown  20:47  

Back to lessons. So, lesson number three,

Adam Baldwin  (20:51)

it fits in quite nicely following my stupid decision to go to audition for The Apprentice. But the third lesson is make your own luck. And by that, I mean, I think myself included, we all look as a lot of people, you know, in prestigious positions and think, wow, you know, they're so lucky. I wish I had that kind of luck. And I say, it's less about, you know, luck, per se, it's making your own luck. And by that, I mean, putting yourself in a position where these opportunities will be presented to you. Now, obviously, maybe not the apprentice, but if you're in private practice, for example, and you want to work on a particular client file, I was always shocked how people just wouldn't even ask the partner to say, can I work on this? Or, you know, if you're in house, and you're interested in a new business line, you know, picking up the phone to one of your big business colleagues and saying, Can I just spend 15 minutes talking to you, these kind of simple decisions effectively do make your make you lucky, because you're putting yourself in those positions that perhaps others aren't. And, you know, when it when it comes to crunch time, your face will be out there. And that's just something I've picked up over the years that being proactive, getting out of your comfort zone, it will make it will make you lucky, it will make you much more visible to whoever needs to see you. And it will definitely will further your career. And it's in it's such a simple, simple thing to do. Yeah, the risk, as I said to a colleague of mine, the risk is you just get told to go away, or your email gets ignored. But what have you wasted, you know, 1015 minutes, you know, the potential reward could be massive. And that's something I'd recommend.

Scott Brown  (22:31)

Yeah, it's just asking, asking and putting yourself out there and making it me here. No one I think a couple of the other guests have said, I've said similar or said things that the sort of line up line up with that. And is there a time where it's, it's backfired for you or hasn't worked out? It hasn't paid off?

Adam Baldwin  (22:52)

Oh, it hasn't worked out plenty of times. I mean, every year when I'm asking for an increase my bonus, it never works for the side, I mean, I think I've asked a lot throughout my career, and I think I've been lucky that I've had, you know, supportive managers that, you know, have tried their best to, you know, fulfil that. I mean, simple, simple requests, you know, as much as I'd like to spend some time with this business line. It's amazing how easy that is to facilitate. You might you might ask for more complex things, but you know, comments or, you know, transfers and things like that, which may not happen, but just showing that you're willing to, you know, get out of your comfort zone and try new things. They will remember that. And I think even with my comments, as we touched on earlier, Scott, the reason I had those comments were purely just from asking, because I was like, oh, you know, there's an opportunity he Bay, I'd like to do that. I rang the partner that was in charge of the client free basic, and we have a chat, you know, simple things like that. But men that when it was time to do the applications for which trainees would go that remember me, because you've done those little things, put the groundwork in. It usually helps. Yeah, I mean, as you say, there's plenty of opportunities for No, and I think you just take them on the chin and move on to the next opportunity.

Scott Brown  (24:09)

What do you think stops? People were what do you think there's anything that stops lawyers asking or making little?

Adam Baldwin  (24:15)

I think lawyers especially, it's the fear of failure, because I think, especially if you take any, you know, fresh intake of, you know, trainees or any junior lawyers, throughout their career, it's been it's been competitive, they've got to be top of the game, you know, you've got to be getting your first deal to one. You've got to be doing a vacation scheme, applications, training, contacts, applications. And that fear of failure is just ingrained throughout because there's so many hurdles to get to, you know, that successful legal career, that you almost don't then want to set yourself up for failure unnecessarily. And I think every time you get to know it hurts, so the best thing to do is just get used to that feeling, you know, get lots of nose. Try, lots of things fail, fail quick and move on. I think having a having a thick skin in this industry is very necessary. Yeah, there's going to be a lot of rejections. But it's taking it and using it for something positive. But I think you're right. That's why people don't maybe ask so much. It's that fear of failure. Yeah.

Scott Brown  (25:19)

No, it's good. It's great advice. And on that on that subject, you were speaking before recording that your next challenge, and I touched on it earlier, you're about to start your Executive MBA

Adam Baldwin  (25:31)

Yeah. Which sounds great in theory, and I've got all the pre reading and about 10 different books on economics, and I'm realising I am so out of my depth on this. It's all good fun. But yes, I've decided earlier this year that it was sort of time for me to sort of formalise my business experience. I think, as we mentioned earlier, I'm in this sort of hybrid position at the moment where I'm not quite a lawyer, but I'm not quite sort of in the business, I'm sort of sitting on the fence. And I think, what's sort of, you know, the thing that's missing for me is that formal sort of academic qualification to back up everything I've been learning in the business over the past sort of four or five years. And so I thought, you know, what this is, this is probably the right time. You know, as we were discussing this before, you know, with two children under the age of four, there's never a right time. So I thought, I may as well just add to my busy calendar and, and take on this new challenge. But I think, you know, it's interesting, I've already seen networks with some of the candidates 120 of us. And it's interesting to see there's about five or six lawyers, which I was surprised with, because it think for the average lawyer, and EMBA is probably something they wouldn't think is particularly relevant. But speaking with these lawyers, they're all this sort of same mindset as me that, that the way the industry is going in, especially in house, the legal teams are becoming so much more intertwined with their business colleagues, that they need to understand a lot of these core business concepts, you know, to ensure that the legal team is operating efficiently. You know, and all the others have various business metrics that perhaps in house legal teams may have been shielded from, suddenly they're coming into view. And it's interesting to see that other people share that opinion. And they also share my reservations about learning about financial statements, balance sheets, cash flows, and the like.

Scott Brown  (27:25)

Yeah, well, part of it. That's great, too. Great to broaden out. So are you are you viewing it as in the future a potential move into a purely a purely business role, purely commercial.

Adam Baldwin  (27:38)

I mean, I'd love to always keep the law involved some way in my career. I mean, I think, actually, that the predecessor to my current role, she had a similar sort of business and legal background and ended up moving back into the BMP legal team as their legal coo. And now as the General Counsel of the UK. So I think it shows that sometimes there's business skills that that you acquire, when you're when you're sitting in the business, you can take back into legal and obviously, all the skills that that she developed over her time in the business are clearly vital in organising the entire UK legal team. So perhaps something like that would be ideal. But who knows? I mean, I think my priorities seem to change on a on a yearly basis.

Scott Brown  (28:23)

And it's great, great to have that supportive business, then we're in terms of supporting you through the through that and providing the opportunities,

Adam Baldwin  (28:30)

yet, definitely. And I think, again, it kind of links to the early one around either compassion and kindness, it's, it was such an easy conversation to have with my line manager, when it was something, you know, I thought would be important to me, to my career. And he was totally supportive, you know, system with the application provided glowing reference. So again, it's great that you know, from day one, that I've sort of got that support internally. So it was really encouraging.

Scott Brown  (28:55)  

What advice would you give to someone looking beyond what you've what you've said already, in terms of asking the question, but moving out of a purely legal role? Has it been anything that's defined that for you,

Adam Baldwin  (29:08) 

I think I'd say approach with caution. I mean, I probably dived into my move without maybe thinking, thinking through all the consequences, because in my situation, I just loved working with the business line that I've now moved into. There's really great people really interesting work. I wasn't particularly fast that I was moving out of the legal team, so to speak, because I kind of felt that you know, the people I work with are the same the contents the same, it was just literally I'm no longer in legal so I can't deliver that sort of legal advice, so to speak, I coordinates I can upline, but the actual legal sign off isn't outside of my remit. And at the time, I didn't really think much of it because day to day, it was doing the fun, the fun work that I was enjoying so much. But I suppose it is thinking that once you do move out of a pure legal role once The door isn't shut to go back into it. I suppose it's the only left open a jar. If you're going to leave a legal environment, understand that it probably is a one way routes for most people. And just be sure that that is something that you know, you embrace and understand. And I think for me now I do I think it was a good decision. But perhaps it was one that I just made quite quickly. I think when you get a promotion hung in front of you, it just sounds so great. Oh, yeah, sure. I'll take it.

Scott Brown  (30:31)

Yeah, yeah. Face Yeah, it's the path the path you walk on and seeing Yes, and being open to things is also there's a lot to be a lot to be said for that. Thank you for sitting down with me today. Adam. It's been great. Great getting to know you a bit better and hear more about your story. So thank you for sharing the really valuable and practical lessons that you have done.

Adam Baldwin  (30:53)

No problem. Thanks so much for inviting me, Scott. And like I said, I mean, I think the things discussed on this podcast, probably more interesting things and I've been brought up by some of your other guests, but I think it's a really valuable and valuable source of information for lawyers at all levels in their in their in their career and throughout their journey. So no thanks for bringing this to the masses. I think it's a great idea.

Scott Brown  (31:16)

Thank you, thank you and not at all don't agree with that. That's imposter syndrome. That's been great and good luck with the EMBA this year and next and however long that takes at the very least it'll give you an excuse to go and hide in a room if the if the kids are having a tantrum.

Adam Baldwin  (31:34)  

Exactly, exactly. That's the real reason I've done it. EMBA is going to be my blanket excuse for everything.

Scott Brown  (31:47)

Thank you for listening to lessons I learned in law. This was actually the last episode for series one. I hope you've enjoyed the series and we're looking at moving into series two. But if there's a subject or someone that you'd like to hear more about, and maybe hear from in series two, please do get in touch. You can contact us at to hello@heriotbrown.com or connect with me or drop me a line on LinkedIn. If you've enjoyed listening, please, please listen to the earlier episodes and please rate and review the podcast. And that's really important for us. And if you'd like to find out more about Harriet Brown, just head over to heriotbrown.com. But until next time, I'm Scott Brown. Thanks for listening