In this episode of Lessons I Learned in Law, Scott Brown speaks to Frances Coats.
Frances began her career as a Corporate M&A Lawyer in private practice (in both London and UAE) with time spent in leading US law firms White & Case and Latham and Watkins before moving to the Magic Circle firm Clifford Chance. She now works as Group General Counsel at International Insurance company, Howden Group Holdings
Frances shares the three lessons she has learned in law including:
Presented by Scott Brown of Heriot Brown Legal Recruitment.
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Scott Brown (0:03)
Hi, I'm Scott Brown, founder of Heriot Brown In-House Legal Recruitment. Welcome to Lessons I Learned in Law podcast, where I sit down and have honest conversations with people from across the in-house legal community to understand what influences have shaped their careers today, and to learn some of the lessons that they've learned along the way. The hope is that this will inspire other people, regardless of the stage that you're at within your career to enjoy the path that you're on and perhaps provide some valuable guidance as well. I don't want to go all Mel Gibson and Braveheart on everyone, but we're recording today on Freedom Day. So it's an absolute scorcher. Both myself and my guest, I will introduce you to in a moment, are melting in the heat, both with fans pointing in our direction. So if you hear background noise, that's what that is. But on to my guest today. I'm really happy to be welcoming Frances Coats to the podcast. Hi, Frances.
Frances Coats (1:04)
I'm still laughing at the Mel Gibson comment.
Scott Brown (1:08)
Yeah, got to get it in somewhere. So Frances is currently the General Counsel for Europe for insurance tech business Bolttech, which recently achieved unicorn status in its series a funding round. She started her career as a corporate lawyer in private practice. And she worked in both London and Dubai, spending time with leading US firms waiting case, Latham and Watkins before moving to Clifford chance, or following their clients a comment. She spent a brief time at Tesco in house before moving to our Ardonagh group, which was known as terror gate, which is a UK is largest independent insurance distribution platform. And she was promoted to Chief Counsel for commercial and corporate in 2016. excitingly, she's recently decided to move on from Bolttech. And I'll be joining Holden, and the leading international insurance intermediary which has operations globally. So after that, Frances, Thanks for Thanks for joining us.
Frances Coats (2:09)
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Scott Brown (2:11)
But a couple of fun facts about Frances that you may not be aware of just to break the ice. She is she tells me she is the worst skier ever. So wonder if there's been some mishaps to hear about later on in the show. She grew up in Greece. So we'll be his chin to the heat that we're experiencing at the moment. And she actually didn't spend her days at school dreaming of becoming a lawyer. She actually wanted to be a vet, but having not got into vet school, I guess, struggle to really get it out there. Get it out. She was told by one of her friends to try law because that seems easy. So we'll find out if that's been the case. But if you just crack on Frances with what's your first lesson?
Frances Coats (2:52)
Yeah, just touching on the icebreakers I really should have listened to some of your other guests first because it made up frankly, just made up some stuff that sounded as impressive as them because I definitely didn't get the memo on doing impressive stuff on my I definitely know Cambridge blues or appearing on MTV. Still time. So my first lesson is, say yes to opportunity. I am a massive overthinker. I will spend days researching where to spend a weekend away, what hotel amenities you know, the hotel that you're gonna spend five seconds, and I will check every single you know, what PowerPoints they have. And yet, some of the best things that have happened in my life really have a decision sort of been made on the spur of the moment, or frankly, that have been sort of made for me. They're probably examples we'll touch on throughout the chat. But the biggest, most obvious one is in sort of probably February of 2009 when the world was in even crazier place than it is now in some ways and walked into it. So in my career, I always worked for sort of one who ended up working for one person, and I was working with one associate at Latham in London, and he was being moved down to the Middle East. And as I walked past his office one day, Southampton's, renters come in here and say, you know, I'm moving to Abu Dhabi. I was like, Yeah, I'll miss you will. And he said, not so much. The managing partners who will come with me and I said you, and I said who will who might and he was like, you will. And so that was that. I mean that you know that that was the decision on, you know, a country I never wanted to set foot in. Coincidentally, a couple of months earlier, I'd seen a programme and it was, it was before the whole… also the Real Housewives thing really came about, but it was definitely a sort of Real Housewives of Dubai kind of programme. And it just made Dubai look like such a horrific place. I actually said I will never set foot in that country. And a couple of friends that actually invited me to go on holiday there had been lightning now not for me. Yeah. So the first time I saw it was setting foot, you know, to basically move there for what turned out to be four years. You know, like every expat, I said, I'd be there for a year. And you know, as soon as I was I could get it tax free. I'd move back. And yeah, I spent the next four years there absolutely loving it.
Scott Brown (5:45)
What made it differ in that conversation to say yes, from others where you might have pondered or procrastinated or whatever, whatever the word is for making that decision?
Frances Coats (5:57)
I mean, I think in February 2009, if your job said to do something, you do it also this guy, Latham I don't know if it still does, I'm sure I'm probably does it had this amazing thing called the associates committee and the associates committee decided on promotions, you know, who was going to be promoted to partner really big decisions? And it was it was it was mostly associates on that committee. It was I think, two thirds associates and 1/3 partners. And Will was one of the representatives for Europe, on the associates committee. And so I said to him, Oh, well, I say no to this. Do you think it's curtains? And he cleverly didn't say yes or no, and didn't tell me for months later that it would have been absolutely fine for me to say no. But by that point, we were sitting in a bar in Dubai when I was quite happy that he hadn't probably given me enough information for me to totally overthink it. But yeah, it's, I look at you know, it's, it's, it's obviously, as I said, a big one, and I was in the fortunate position of, you know, I didn't have a family to think about at the time, and not everyone can say yes, to an opportunity to move across the world. So you know, sort of macro and micro opportunities that come along. And there's also, you know, making your own opportunity. And I was, I was listening to one of your previous podcasts, and I think it was Tanya, who was talking about, you know, if you want something, if you're aiming for something, tell people and make those opportunities and make those opportunities more likely to happen. And even on a sort of smaller level, I do quite a lot of mentoring formula and for more with younger lawyers, and I was speaking to a guy a few months ago, who, already at a trainee or junior associate, I'm trying to remember but certainly no, no more than a sort of a year qualified, was already doing talks for the lawyer writing articles. You know, and very firmly focusing his career at a very junior level for clearly where he wanted to go when he was more senior. So I've got to say I, I probably wasn't that organised especially well certainly wasn't when I was that Junior, but it's, you know, veering into and it's not a lesson actually. But, you know, part of the same lesson, I guess, is, don't think you're too junior to create opportunities for yourself.
Scott Brown (8:27)
So good, less, I think it's a good thing to have in your life as well just to be open to things and being receptive of because if you don't listen, then you're not gonna you're not really gonna think outside the box or try anything new. To that point, had you considered working overseas, you'd obviously lived overseas, sometime growing up? Had it been something that was on your to do list?
Frances Coats (8:51)
Yeah, so I did it. So I trained at White in cases you said and one of the main reasons I joined Whiteman case was oh, firstly, because I'd had an amazing training amazing back scheme. Now. Secondly, they guaranteed you a seat abroad, so I'd spent six months in Tokyo and actually considered qualifying out there actually. And so, you know, if you've got sort of more junior people listening to this, I would absolutely recommend having a stint abroad at some point in your career because, look, there's all sorts of lessons about culture and working in different cultures and etc. But frankly, it's an absolute blast. You make the friends for life. It's, you know, just an amazing thing to look back on when or when maybe don't have the opportunity to do a bit later in life.
Scott Brown (9:41)
Yeah, absolutely. Got a toner on. On a rainy day in London. Yeah, lockdown in London, getting photos from friends in Sydney. That's the lockdown at all. Has it filtered through to your day to day? Role? Do you feel you're more open? Since that time? Do you feel you're more open to? Yes,
Frances Coats (10:09)
yeah. And I mean, I think the other thing is, you know, it made me throw away my five year plan. Because walking into someone's room being told, you know, effectively something that's going to change the next four years of that five years. And something that was never ever on the horizon makes you realise that sometimes five year plans and they're like, you know, useful, if only to be ripped up. But yeah, look, I mean, touching on my move, when I joined Bolttech. Actually, interestingly, in my interview, it was one of the things. The general manager asked me about five year plans, and I said, Yeah, I have one. And said, Look, I just say, you know, I tend to say yes to opportunity, which he really liked in the interview and probably liked a little bit less a few months later, when I told him, I said yes to another opportunity. Which, and, and it's, you know, it's, it's absolutely not reflective of Bolttech. At all, it's been an absolutely amazing time with them, albeit, very short. But it is a really exciting business, it's doing really, you know, it's an inshore tech, and I think, you know, we will touch on cyber insurance, maybe in a minute. But, you know, people, people probably sort of laughing and going sneeringly laugh at the idea of, you know, working in insurance as being excited, genuinely exciting. But it is, you know, Bolttech, especially as, as an insurer tech is, is doing new stuff and interesting stuff all the time. And it is a great team. But you know, it is just the opportunity to go to harden is just too big a one to say no to
Scott Brown (11:53)
those, those things happen, not at the right time, all the time. So it's good to be able to again, some other people may shy away from that and feeling that they're in something for too short a period of time, but I think it's making the right decision for you,
Frances Coats (12:07)
which I definitely do. You know, there is definitely it's not, you know, there's definitely not a feeling of I'm just going to do whatever works for me all the time. You know, maybe in your career, maybe in my career, I should have done it a little bit more, actually. But it's Yeah, yeah, even Bolttech admitted these things don't come up at the right time when you do have to do what's right for your career.
Scott Brown (12:37)
Moving on to lesson two.
Frances Coats (12:40)
Yeah, so my second lesson, in some ways it's possibly linked, or at least the example is linked. So the second lesson is, especially if you are trying to build out a specialism in private practice, or, you know, looking at in house moves is look me on the sexy industries. As I said, you know, people might laugh at the idea that insurance can be, you know, interesting at all, let alone, you know, fascinating or certainly, you know, career really doing more interesting things there than you would be at somewhere, you know, that is probably on more people's lips. But I had done a secondment at Kraft Foods, which is now Mondelez, which is a, you know, an FMCG snack. And then when I moved back to the UK and moved in house properly, I was at Tesco. And I thought I was on that line, I thought I was on FMCG retail. And I liked it, you know, it's tangible, it's stuff that you are genuinely interested in. And I was I was on a contract of Tesco. I'd moved back to the UK and moved in have simultaneously and that that was difficult. And I was a five-year qualified corporate lawyer, which I thought would set me up perfectly for an enhanced career and wasn't probably what people were looking for. And I got a call from a recruiter, and she said, I've got a job. It's an insurance Don't hang up. Genuinely, that's how she said it. And yeah, I mean, I genuinely thought I'll go I'll go for some interview experience. And similarly, to my previous story, you know, I, I somehow got the job with no insurance experience whatsoever. And then again, spent five years there really, really career defining, actually, I mean, the things we did there were actually insurance was the least of it. It was private equity owned as soon as I came in, there was a massive restructuring. We did a deal while I was there, that was so complex. So, we did. We brought together five businesses. refinanced our debt, a mixture of high yield and bank debt, and launched a charity and changed our name all on the same day. And yeah, there was a partner at Latham, who was very senior partner when I was at Latham. And at that stage eight years earlier. And she was on our deal. And she said it was the most complex deal she'd ever worked on. And so, we would, we would find it difficult to recruit a donor. And when people came in for interview, I would say, don't think about this as an insurance company. Think about this as a massive private equity portfolio company. That's what you're going to be doing. And so, you know, as a sort of lesson, I'd say, look, beyond the industry, look at your role, look at what the job is actually going to entail. Look at the team. I mean, you know, when I went it was a tight there was in a period of real flux, as a company. And we were really insulated from some of the problems that other teams were having, because we just had a great boss. And, you know, really, that mattered more?
Scott Brown (16:14)
Yeah, I think it's, I think it's something we that we see regularly, people are attracted by something sparkly, and it's been able to step back, if the opposite is the opposite, where people are discontented in their work or job. It's not normally about or just very rarely about adult like what the company does as a as a wire sales. I don't I don't agree with it, its management, its progression. That's generally what the job entails as a lawyer, you have to you have to look beyond Why is why is this company selling? So there's another widget.
Frances Coats (16:54)
Yeah, when we were speaking a couple of weeks ago, I'm talking at the moment, actually a student, a law student, and he wants to go into sports. Yeah. Like a lot of people do. Buy, we're sort of getting ideas around the table around what fix sort of experience might be relevant to that. And of course, everyone around the table was saying stuff that wasn't related to sports at all. And it's, you know, old did, it's commercial and gambling, whatever. And actually, when you look at what sports law is, actually is, it's, it's doing a lot of what other people are doing in other industries, ultimately, you're not actually on the pitch. If you're doing sports law, you're doing some contracts and looking at some risks and managing some reputations. And that's what most of us do in all other industries. And actually, you know, just being blunt about it, it's probably more opportunity. You know, if you apply for Facebook, you're gonna have 400 people applying for the same job as you. If you apply for an insurance company, I can almost guarantee you, you're gonna have a handful. Yeah, believe me, I've tried to recruit for you know.
Scott Brown (18:06)
Have you found that a challenge? Have you found that a challenge in attracting people? Is it as a case of getting them in front of you in explaining more? And then then it works or? Yeah, pinpoint?
Frances Coats (18:19)
Yeah, look, I mean, I'm gonna absolutely say it's one of those where you probably do need, you know, a Headhunter recruiter to be there selling that company, because you know, it needs to be sold as much as the candidate does, you know, you can't just put it out there and people will buy it. Because people are people are looking for jobs and other industries that they perceive as more interesting. I remember when I wasn't CC, we, my roommate, my and I drove out to some conference, we had to drive through an area called Jebel Ali that is sort of full of warehouses and lots of lots of sort of industry. And he was in Dubai, sorry, he was a senior lawyer at the time. And I remember him looking around and he said, I bet none of the law firms, you know, all these companies out there, and he said, I bet none of the law firms have ever come out to speak to a single company out there. And he very shortly afterwards left had been made partner and been offered partnership at another firm. And he has in the intervening sort of eight, nine years, he has made a huge success. He now runs the whole the whole region for one another English firm out there. And he's built most of his career on looking at those businesses who other even other law firms weren't chasing. You know, everyone was chasing the big shiny pea houses, etc. And he was going after the region's biggest chicken manufacturer, and has made an incredible career out of it. So again, you know, in some ways it comes back to that sort of looking for opportunities creating your own opportunities. Yeah. Looking beyond the audience.
Scott Brown (20:09)
Yeah, the only the only lawyers. But yeah, that's good. That's a good Lesson. Veering away from that, I want to hear more about your skiing escapades. But, grew up in Greece, I'm thinking like, got to be expected! I'm picturing the Jamaican bobsled team in Cool Runnings. Greek. In Greece going down, going down in the mountains.
Frances Coats (20:32)
Yeah, I can't say what means like a beach volleyball or anything to make up for the fact alone. absolutely rubbish at winter sports. I mean, look, as I said, it's, I really should have read the brief a bit more and found something really impressive. But I really am just, you know, if there's any lessons to be learned, it's being conscious of your, your, your weaknesses, and no one can believe how bad at skiing I am, because I have been skiing a lot. Oh, yeah. I mean, there's, there's no way this is just, you know, keep trying. And I'll go skiing with people who I've told them as bad as I am. And they're like, nah, nah, nah. And then they'll see me and like you really, really are as bad as you say you are. I'm like, why would I tell you I am really bad at something that I'm not. And I Yeah, look, I went to university in the state, I can blame it on something. So I went to university in the States for a year, because I wanted to be a bet and didn't get in and thought I try over there and didn't find out until I was quite sort of set in my head that I was going to do it until it was postgrad over there. So I wasn't even doing it over there. And I went to university that had 2000 students total. And yet the wealth in American education institutions is such that it had its own Olympic swimming and diamond diving facilities. Its own fully kitted out professional ice hockey stadium and its own ski slope. And I've never been skiing before and went skiing, and was taken down a Black Diamond, which I think is the equivalent of a black in Europe, and crashed into a tree. And yeah, first time ever skiing. And had to be sort of skidooed down, I don't know what the technical term is, you know, zipped up in something and taken down. And then I remember sitting in this hospital was in a really rural hospital in rural Vermont. And it was only me and one other guy in the ER. And he was a genuine lumberjack and was holding the fingers of one hand in a little Ziplock bag. And there's nurse coming out and saying, y'all, okay, and I was like, hold on, and he was like, hold, it literally held up the bag with all his fingers in it and said, You're fine. So I could blame my hatred of skiing or my real being so bad at skiing on that, but I think it's just really bad at it. Maybe it's not likely to be out of control. But I'm also I was also gonna say I'm the worst golfer in the world again, after lots and lots and lots of practice, but I did actually win a game with mini golf relatively recently. So again, it wasn't very big handicap a very good handicap. So I'm getting messed up. Yeah,
Scott Brown (23:21)
yeah. Good, good. Oh, well, après-ski, you can be professional. Professional après-ski! That’s what I go for! And what about so I'm keen to talk about struggles and failures and learn more about that. So having set out to be a vet, sounded like you did actually explore it in the in the States. How did you sort of come to terms with not making it to vet school? Or what was the problem there?
Frances Coats (23:49)
Yeah, just I mean, look, you know, I think it probably still is certainly when I was trying 20 years ago, it was incredibly difficult to get in. And just kept butting my head against the wall trying and tried three times here, tried once, as I said, went over to the States to try it. And, you know, finally came to a realisation that it just wasn't gonna happen. Financially, frankly, because in America, it's but even then it was sort of 30 grand a year versus 1000 over here. And so you know, this again, this decision I'd agonised over and these were really the days of pretty much before the internet. So I had researched I used to go down to the what's called the Fulbright library in London, who had all these books to research and which university to go to and spent weeks doing that. And then my decision on which university to go to in the UK was phoning up Edinburgh in Bristol in June and saying what have you got left in the Faculty of Science starting in September? And yeah, Bristol told I can change to anything pretty much apart from veterinary medicine and law, actually, interestingly, in my first term, so that's how my decision was made for how to go to Bristol. Once again. Yeah. So again, it will, you know, you can it's all sort of circular,
Scott Brown (25:15)
the spontaneity etc. Yes, was there then
Frances Coats (25:17)
after, I should have? Yeah, I should have learned my lesson then really, and just stopped agonising over anything and just flipped a coin for every decision in my life. Because actually, looking back on it having the opportunity to think about it before this chat. Some of you know pretty much all the best things in my life, like I said, I've been made and the decisions that were made like that, and decisions I've agonised over have sometimes been some of the worst ones.
Scott Brown (25:50)
Lesson number three, just to wrap up the three lessons,
Frances Coats (25:55)
the lesson number three for me. And again, it's all sort of, you know, having listened to your other podcasts that there's some sort of themes emerging, but my one is, is similar to I think it was sorrows is around teamwork, but also, you know, specifically about being a manager, I very much work on the basis of hire people who are better than you, and then look after them. And again, this is a lesson that I learned not even in law. So you know, when I was 18, and I worked at the body shop as my Saturday job. We had a manager who, you know, if she wasn't busy, she'd be stocking the shelves, she'd be cleaning the shelves, or whatever. And we would go above and beyond for her, you know, we were a bunch of 18 year olds, and all we were doing was earning enough money to go out that evening, you know, three pounds an hour. And you know, I respect us so much, because, you know, anyone who's a manager has probably had difficulty managing a team of people who are probably reasonably highly motivated professionals. And we were a bunch of scallywags, frankly, as I said, earning three pounds an hour. And so managing to manage us and get the best out of us, was quite a feat. And similarly, we had an assistant manager who was, you know, terrible. And of course, whenever he'd ask us to do something we would do pretty much as little as we could to try and get out of it, you know, certainly weren't doing anything for him. So, you know, I've never really understood the idea of being a bad manager. It's not just for on a personal level, you know, because obviously, I obviously, I don't understand it from that perspective, you know, who wants to be a douchebag it but it is also just you get the best out of teams, when you are good to people. You know, if I do want to tie it back to law, I worked at White and case at a time when, you know, city, sort of stalwart Morris Allen was there. And he was, you know, and still is gigantic in the city. And, you know, hugely senior liking case. And he treated everyone so well. And then you'd have a trainee sort of lording it over the night secretary. And it was always, you know, and again, with Morris, you, you would go above and beyond, you know, you'd be sitting there at 5am. And there was a little part of you that didn't mind quite so much. Because you knew that he would genuinely be grateful, you know, when you wanted to book your holiday, you wouldn't go to your supervisor, as a trainee, you'd go tomorrow, because you knew that he would give you his holiday, the holiday because he recognised how important it was for people, you made sure that the trainee got their name mentioned in the press release. And you know, similar to yours, I know that your personal story on this too. But you know, he would make sure the trainees went on the closing dinners. And it really has, it's just been you learn from him from people like him, and you learn the opposite. You know, you learn from the people who are not good managers. Again, as a trainee, I remember having a terrible, terrible time with someone and my dad saying, remember this, and when you're in that position, never treat people like that. And of course, when you're a trainee, you can never imagine being anyone's boss. But 15 years later, it has always stuck with me. And if I ever think I am being a bit of a douchebag I cast my mind back to that.
Scott Brown (29:19)
Yeah, I think it's I think it's really important to stay relevant in that sense and reflect on where you've where you've come from. I think that I was always think the same but I have in the profession. I said, I suppose from my from my experience and from speaking with others as well. There's a lot of the opposite from the example you've given from Morris there. But good to hear. Good to hear that that was a that was someone you were exposed to earlier because I think it sticks it really does stick. Do you think do you think people realise the impact that they're having? Just by doing that?
Frances Coats (29:57)
I wonder whether people can possibly understand the impact they're having if they're being the opposite, really, and, uh, really thinking forward because, you know, I think about some of the people who were, you know, senior to me as trainees and, you know, still senior in law firms and I think, you know, they're genuinely, you know, the people have long memories, and the law is small. And that that's actually that applies whether you're in private practice or in house, you know, you will come across the same people frequently. So I don't understand whether people think about the impact they're having if they're not being good to people. And, you know, it's more difficult. Obviously, if you've got a big team, I've, again, been fortunate that, you know, I have, even when I've inherited teams, I've been incredibly lucky with having really excellent people, excellent lawyers, but just excellent people and my team. And I take you know, I, I very frequently say, when I first meet someone, my job, in some ways, is making you ready for your next job. You know, I don't you know, and hopefully that you'll stay with us and that next job will be here but if not, you know, it's you know, that's you're not training people to stultify you are training people to be the best person they can. And after two years, they should be better than they were when you first met them. And so, you know, again, it's really difficult. If you've got, you know, a massive team, you can't do this with everyone, but I introduce people to my network, we talk about career progression, and what people want to achieve. And then, you know, you genuinely try and help them get there. Rather than helping them to just stay and you know, it's quite useful. If someone can just do the same job and not really moving, then you don't need to replace them. But that's not actually what's best for them.
Scott Brown (31:52)
Yeah, it's a very good one to finish it to finish on. Frances, thanks for sharing your lessons. But I mentioned we've mentioned throughout that you're, you're moving on from Bolt. So just keen to hear what is what's next for the next challenges you see ahead for you.
Frances Coats (32:05)
So yeah, I'm starting at Padden on the second of August, as we touched on earlier, it's a huge opportunity, really exciting, it's a business that when I was at Ardonagh was, you know, pretty, pretty comparable in terms of businesses. And so it's one that I've been aware of, for years, you know, touching back on how small worlds and industries are a lot of people from Ardonagh had moved over to Howard and I knew people there and a lot of you know that the overriding comment is what a great culture it has. So it is doing incredible things in insurance, distribution and an insurance generally. And it has at its core, the importance of culture. And again, I know you know, touching on some of the things that other of your podcasters have said it's that that really matters. And it's really difficult to achieve in a massive organisation. So yeah, really excited to be
Scott Brown (33:12)
great. Sounds good to get on to get stuck into ash step by step up and roll so much larger and larger roll.
Frances Coats (33:21)
Yeah, big step up and roll. Yeah, it was. Yeah, in some ways, it was more difficult one to sort of jump into immediately without agonising over. But yeah,
Scott Brown (33:32)
amazing. Good stuff. excited, excited to hear how it goes. But that brings us to the close of the episode. So thank you. Thank you, Frances, for taking the time. It's been good hearing, hearing more about your lessons and career and what lies ahead.
Frances Coats (33:47)
Thank you so much for having me. It's been great as an opportunity to sort of reflect actually,
Scott Brown (33:52)
we're both sat here in need of some fresh air. Absolutely boiling. As always, I'm keen to keep the show fresh and excuse the pun and relevant. But if there's a subject or someone that you'd like to hear more about on lessons learned in law, please get in touch. You can contact me at email@example.com or connect with me or drop me a message on LinkedIn. If you've enjoyed listening, please tell a friend or two about it and share it share that too wide on social media. Finally, if you'd like to find out more about Heriot Brown, head over to heriotbrown.com. Until next time, I'm Scott Brown. Thanks for listening