In this episode of Lessons I Learned in Law Scott Brown speaks Martin Nolan. As General Counsel at Skyscanner, Martin is responsible for Skyscanner’s Legal and Public & Regulatory Affairs teams and also acts as Company Secretary to Skyscanner’s group companies. Prior to moving in-house, Martin spent ten years working as a corporate lawyer in private practice, specialising in corporate finance, M&A and Private Equity.
Martin reveals some of the lessons he learned in law including:
· Be your authentic self. Trying to be someone else at work will be exhausting!
· Take your blinkers off. Your legal skills are extremely transferrable so don’t look exclusively at what you’re doing now to inform your next career choices.
· Fail fast, fail forward. If you don’t ever make mistakes, you’re playing it too safe!
Martin is two years in to a mammoth home renovation project. Hear how that’s progressing!
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Scott Brown (0:01)
Hi, I'm Scott Brown, Managing Director of Heriot Brown In-House Legal Recruitment. Welcome back to Lessons I Learned in Law, the podcast brought to you by Heriot Brown. We are specialists in placing lawyers in fulfilling careers in house. And each week on this podcast, I get to sit down with an inspiring lawyer, someone at the top of their game within the profession to talk through and hear about their top three lessons that they've learned working in law. On this week's episode, delighted to be joined by Martin Nolan. Hey, Martin. It’s great to have you. Martin is General Counsel and Company Secretary at Skyscanner, a brand that we're all familiar with. Prior to moving in-house, Martin spent 10 years working as a corporate lawyer in private practice specialising in corporate finance, m&a, and private equity. Along with myself, he's part of the Scottish Edinburgh mafia within law. So good to have you on Martin.
Martin Nolan (0:59)
Thank you. Delighted to be here.
Scott Brown (1:02)
We'll jump in Martin, if you don't mind. We'll just kick off with your first lesson, please.
Martin Nolan (1:06)
Sure, yeah. We're gonna have to think about what lessons I've learned. I suppose there's, there's quite a few. But the one that's probably dearest to my heart, I suppose is the need to be authentic just to be yourself?
Scott Brown (1:21)
Yes, that's a great lesson.
Martin Nolan (1:22)
So I think the reason I think, is I spent a lot of my early career in private practice, I think trying to assess in any given situation, what the I guess the optimum version of myself would be the one that would generate the best outcome. Some of that was spent looking at the people around you, what made them successful, what the characteristics that you thought other people were valuing them, and trying to just kind of emulate them and being a bit of a chameleon. And I suppose as I've gotten older, and potentially a little bit wiser, I started to kind of think much more about why not just be yourself and see how you get on with that and see if that manages to land and, and occasionally does. What, what one, one example in particular, that kind of turned around for me. So it was a couple of years back when honestly, I was looking to leave private practice. And I had gone through multiple stages of interviews to go and work for a private company. I won't say which one it was, but you know, like a well-known company in Edinburgh. And I suppose it maybe wouldn't have been my dream job on reflection. But certainly at the time, I felt like it would have been a step change from where I was, and went through this interview process with them. So say it was like three, four interviews or something like that got down to the final two, and started being interviewed by people outside the legal team, who be key stakeholders in the business, I went really well. And I didn't get the job. Right. And basically, afterwards, the main person, the General Counsel at the company, felt quite bad, I think and said, You'll be alright, if I could just take you out for lunch, and just give you some feedback, and thought, why not? It's a free lunch, I'll go for that. And other lunch. Unfortunately, I hadn't had much time to prepare. And I certainly wasn't in that kind of interview mode for it. And to be absolutely honest, I'd also had a sort of Team night out the night before and probably wasn't my optimum sort of freshness either went to this lunch, and I was just completely myself. Because I felt like you know, I didn't have anything to lose. I wasn't trying to I wasn't trying to be anyone wasn't trying to be impressive. And the guy actually said to me, like, it's so weird. But if you had been the person in the interview that you are now you'd have got the job, and how, why, like we were actually a bit too nervous that you that you wouldn't push back that you would be to almost subservient to other stakeholders within the business and not kind of like, like play hardball with them. I thought, oh, that's, that's a million miles off what I'm actually late. But I guess I thought an interview, I was just trying to be this person that, you know, everyone would like and just build that rapport. And clearly, it backfired massively. And that was just this morning, I thought, you know, as much better to be, honestly, it's much better to be disliked, for who you really are than be disliked for someone that you're trying to be. And I thought at that point, that's, that's, that's a change for me, I'm not going to try and be that sort of chameleon anymore, as much better, much better to try and actually be yourself be contained with who you are. And actually, as you haven't kind of moved into that position, realised how much more people value that authenticity and value, that credibility that it brings just by being yourself as actually, it's quite powerful. And you're in the sort of legal world and the business world or A lot of people out there are just trying to be someone else. And a lot of the time, you can just you can just kind of cut through it.
Scott Brown (5:05)
Yeah, in private practice as well, the inclusivity and diversity piece of it plays in that lesson plays a lot into that as well, and people trying to fit the mould in one way or another.
Martin Nolan (5:16)
Absolutely. And I think that sort of, to get that diversity of thinking, you know, the only way to really get that right and get that that mixture, right is to ensure that the people that you think you're hiring, the skills that you think you're hiring for the personality types are the ones that is kind of is a bit like what it says on the tin, like, if people are not being themselves in that context, or being themselves in an interview process, then it's very difficult to make sure you're getting the right hire. And you and I think that for me, if you were having to be a different version of yourself, or you are a completely different person, in your whole working life is exhausting. And will eventually put you into a point where I think you're quite unhappy. I was actually reflecting on this recently, I've just yet again, kind of gone through kind of like personality type testing thing, the insights scheme, you know, where you get the coloured brick, yes, yeah. And a lot of the time when I've done that, before, I've come out of that process, with the sort of red being my leading colour, if you like, which is the you lead with much more that sort of dialect or style of things. That's what is historically always been. But that's your sort of conscious persona. My subconscious one was not that and would usually come out as green which is, is more on the caring side. And it occurred to me the reason I probably feel so I never articulated it very well, but at Skyscanner, Skyscanner, I think that I came to this job and immediately felt like everything clicked into place. And I was my authentic self at work. It's such a cliche, you know, you bring your whole self to work. But that's very true for us. And when I was doing the reading the report from insights that I've done most recently, my conscious and subconscious personas are absolutely in sync. And I think that's probably why I feel so at home because I'm not trying to be a different person to I sort of more naturally am. And I think that's, that's where it comes from.
Scott Brown (7:23)
Now. You're interviewing people into your team, you touched on that, do you set the scene and encourage them to be themselves? If you're if you're interviewing someone, or?
Martin Nolan (7:33)
Yeah, I interview not just from it, my interview, right across the business, software engineering roles, product roles, is a fairly well for an interview process. Really looking at kind of driver behaviours, find out what people are really like, understand their personality, and whether or not they're a good fit for the company. I suppose when I'm looking at these things, I probably go off-piste quite a lot in terms of the questions that I ask. It's not trying to catch people out. But you know, I kind of sometimes do to just try and get to what people's natural personality is, rather than their pre rehearsed competency based interview questions, I want to find out what someone's really like, because it's only in those circumstances, you find out how they will really react. And I'm always much more interested in finding out what someone's like as a person and what makes them tick. Because the truth is, people are, I assume, by the time that people have come to that interview stage, and they've kind of gone through, like filtering, they've gone through, you know, excellent recruiters such as yourself, they will be in a position where, you know, from a technical skills from an expertise perspective, they're probably there. So what you're really looking at much more is, does this person fit within my business? How will they interact with the stakeholders that I know they're gonna have to interact with? And the best way of doing that is trying to think, Well, how would they build rapport? How are they going to kind of cut through the clutter? You know, people want to deal with a personality, people want to be sure that person is memorable, that is going to be kind of plain sailing for them. And the best way to do that is just to try and get to know that the core of that person and see who they really are and whether or not that's something that is something you want to add to your team.
Scott Brown (9:18)
I think woven into your story as well. There's like a lesson that to turn up. Have you have you turned up to all other interviews hung over with a slight hangover? Slight hangover?
Martin Nolan (9:30)
Not necessarily consciously. I can I can see. I've never turned up to an interview drunk. But yeah, I can guarantee that I've not been hungover. hungover one or two. I wouldn't recommend that like is not our that's not a lesson I've learned and law. Turn up with a hangover. Definitely not.
Scott Brown (9:52)
Yeah. Yeah, it does happen. Continue to take the edge off, I suppose. Yeah, we wouldn't recommend that either. Had it blown away? tenant view. I can't remember if it was for a training contract and I'm fairly sure it was with your ex firm in their Glasgow office and I turned up I mean, I don't wear glasses, these are blue screen glasses. I've got a there's a slight prescription. But I turned up to this view will end up here the glasses that I bought a TK backs. I don't know what I thought they were gonna achieve. But I walked out, walked out, haven't healed that and then bumped into a friend who was also interviewing at the same firm on the way out the door mortified the first day. Why did you wear glasses why what you did was I just thought they just thought they fade the bell, I thought was what they want to see but didn't get the job. But
Martin Nolan (10:41)
you were you were not being sufficiently
Scott Brown (10:44)
was a bit authentic. We'll move on to your second lesson, Martin,
Martin Nolan (10:55)
we trying to capture this was by saying for lawyers take your blinkers off. So by that what I really mean is the you know, sometimes the process of becoming a lawyer the process of going through your years at uni, your diploma, legal practice or qualifying courses and then through into your training contract is I always think of it as is like those sort of like flat escalators, you get the report where you're just going to do one big long haul, just in a straight line, you don't have to think about it very much. And occasionally get to those kind of gaps in between them where you can come off and go back or, you know, you've effectively it's a juncture. But I think for most people, they're just they're just continuing on in that sort of, it's very easy, just, you know, stared off into the distance and think like, the thing that you're doing given point in time is the thing that you're going to keep doing. And that development for you is promotion within a hierarchy, or more money or more responsibility, more autonomy or something like that. And I think like people are kind of conditioned to start thinking in that way. So because I am a corporate lawyer, I will always be a corporate lawyer. For me, I think, you know, the vast majority of lawyers are really, really talented, and can take the skills that they've got and build it into a sort of multidisciplinary skill set, you know, go and apply it to solving problems elsewhere. Even if it's still, you know, tangentially related to legal issues. But I feel that what I really encourage everyone to do and mighty men, Skyscanner strongly encourage this is, you know, come in, have a broad skill set. But be perfectly prepared, if you want to do it, to look for those other opportunities within our business, whether that is going and looking at sustainability, which is an area that I'm responsible for the Public Affairs function, it says and Skyscanner, you don't feel that you need to be pigeonholed by the thing that you're doing at a given point in time. Very often, and I'm sure this is the case for many in House lawyers. Problems will come up that don't have an obvious solution, and probably are not something that that a law firm even will have a great deal of expertise in. So you Skyscanner as a as a travel meta search platform or policing in virtually every country in the world. You know, we'll come up with things where you think, what is what is the law related to this in this particular place? And it's so niche that no one knows the answer to that. So someone from MIT has got to go and find that answer. There's, there's nothing that makes any one person predisposed to be better at doing that than anyone else, regardless of what their background is, and try and encourage people to just kind of think more broadly. And that's, that's tied up for me in a very important point. And it wasn't one of my core lessons. But it's so vital for people to have that deep understanding of what their business is doing. If you're an in house lawyer, understand the industry understand the industry operates in context, because that's the thing that's that helps shapes all these decisions that helps influence risk based decisions. You really need to be thinking along those lines, I think, a big part of there's not just thinking about, Okay, what's what can I do as a corporate lawyer in this situation? That's more, I'm here to help solve a problem that the business has, can I use my core skills? Can I use my transferable skills? How can I how can I help get a solution here? But for me, the people who get to that faster are the ones that are open minded, blinkers off and prepared to prepare to have a goal.
Scott Brown (14:40)
Yeah. Looking back on your time in private practice, do you think this is something that could be equally applied in that type of business as well? Or that obviously, you're working within that tech and travel space? Do you feel it's more aligned to working in house?
Martin Nolan (14:57)
It's probably to give you a really Answer, it's easier in some environments than it is in others. So don't think it's absolutely the case, you know, a split, I can have solid line between private practice and in house rules. And there's probably a lot of in house rules where it's more difficult to do. But, you know, I think that there's definitely some lessons to be learned and applied from that. I think even for private practice, even if it's not, I appreciate you know, with specialisms, you can probably feel a little bit more like you're treading on someone's toes. But you know, equally, you could be taking the same core skills, that you've got the same legal knowledge, you've got looking at applying it to a different sector, that maybe the firm that you're working in, doesn't currently target, whether that's, you know, moving more into the SME space, when you've been focused on bigger corporate blue chip clients, or vice versa, potentially a look alike can obviously be a bit harder. Are you just developing that sort of, I suppose from a business development perspective going and finding that sector tapping up, showing that you understand the sector, that you've got a genuine enthusiasm in it, because all that stuff kind of shines through. So similarly, to what you know, I mean, in terms of showing, as an in house lawyer, that you're stakeholders in the business, you understand what they're thinking and what's driving them, the same can be true of going and finding clients in a different sector.
Scott Brown (16:19)
Good point, the public and regulatory responsibilities that you have, how did that come around? How did it position itself as an opportunity to take responsibility for that?
Martin Nolan (16:28)
Similarly, to kind of what I've seen there, but problems come up and you don't necessarily know what the solution is, or no one's got the answer. It kind of came about through that is Skyscanner and metasearch. Quite generally, when I when I joined Skyscanner, it's sort of regulated is not obviously regulated as a sector because it's still almost emerging. So it falls in between the gaps, or not the gaps, or crossover points between different pieces of regulation, it's sometimes difficult to sort of divine war, particular thing applies or what the rules are. And that means that these new rules are emerging. So you need to be out there trying to think well, does this apply? Here's a new law coming well, how do I make sure that I am either in school or not in scope? How does this help drive the business forward? How could this potentially impact us negatively, and that it all kind of came about from there thinking, Well, you know, the position that we're in, we probably need to be helping try and influence these things and make sure we're getting the right outcomes. Ultimately, for our travellers, we very strongly focused on that what delivers the best outcome, I suppose for consumers would be the more general way of looking at it. But we thought, we've got a strong voice here, we've got 100 million people that use our platform every single month, we want to be out there kind of like making sure we're bringing about changes that will help them help drive innovation in the sector. So it kind of came about through that. And we joined various trade bodies, and realised that it was relatively straightforward for us, if you were tenacious, to go and get the meetings with the people that you needed to go and speak to, and they were generally pretty receptive to hearing from us. So we kind of formalise that a little bit. So we're really lucky, and you just a small team, but you know, we're focused on this position globally. So we spent time in Washington, we spent a lot of time in Brussels, post Brexit, we spent more time focused on the UK position as well. And we're kind of branching out more and looking at AIPAC. So we've just joined a new trade body there as well. And the truth is, is incredibly interesting is an area where you feel that you can make a real impact is really kind of emerging stuff. And you're so deep into your industry as well. It's I probably found that one of the most interesting things I've done in my career so far,
Scott Brown (18:48)
you touched on developing like, or encouraging your team as well, to take the blinkers off and think of other ways to progress their career, is there an example that you're specifically proud of that you've helped someone move into, into an area that they didn't maybe see beforehand?
Martin Nolan (19:05)
There's probably a few examples of that. So, you know, I think it's really important to encourage people to do that. And as I've said, take your blinkers off, I say to people all the time, but sometimes these things are a lot easier said than done. And we've got to find those opportunities. And it can be a struggle for people because they can be really busy in their day to day, and it's difficult to find the breathing space to think about what they really want. And we actually just as part of our kind of performance review process, so we use a sort of series of commitments, where people undertake what they're going to do over the next sort of six months and have handshakes with people internally on the org that they need to help support them. And as part of that process that I've just gone through with my team, just wanted to have that sort of sit down with each of them and say, Well, where do you want your career to go? Are there areas where you want maybe try and get exposure to something else within the business even if it's completely non legal? Where is it You want to is there a new skill you want to learn? Because it's only really by knowing that and having those conversations that you're able to look for the opportunities for people as they potentially arise. So I've just kind of gone through that. I mean, for me, one of the areas where I'm actually really pleased with something that we've done is on the sustainability side of things, because someone who now works in my team had worked in our product or before, and had a real, genuine sort of organic passion for all things, sustainability. And so when I became the exec sponsor for sustainability seems sort of pushing really hard to get resources into this area, managed to bring her over into my team and get her focused on building our sustainability sort of framework, our roadmap to net zero, and get exposure to a lot of different things. But you know, that's an opportunity rather than looking externally to see, right, well, we need a new head of whatever it happens to be, can you look at the talent within your own org or within your team, and find a way of taking someone's sort of general skill set and talent coupled with a passion for doing something and put those things together to give somebody an opportunity to kind of pivot their careers a little bit into something that they really love?
Scott Brown (21:17)
That's cool. Martin did an amazing speech at our burns night in January, toasting the toast to the lassies. Every time I catch up with him is renovating is his house since then. How's that going? Martin? How's the house ran on?
Martin Nolan (21:34)
It's ongoing, I think everything I own is covered in plaster dust. So it doesn't matter how much I try and close doors and seal them up. Just dust seeps everywhere. So yeah, it's progressing nothing. Two and a half years into it. And I was due to be finished by the
Scott Brown (21:50)
We’ll see you on Grand Designs!
Martin Nolan (21:53)
Maybe I mean, like that guy who had to sell his Lake House because it destroys his life. Maybe that'll be me. Yeah, it's slowly but surely. Yeah. I mean, at one point, it looked like I was nearly done. And no, it doesn't look like that. Right. Yeah. There's scaffolding right in front of you right now.
Scott Brown (22:13)
Okay, yeah, nice.
Scott Brown (22:22)
Martin Nolan (22:25)
Yeah, sure. This is a lesson that we practice internally in Skyscanner, not just in my team, which is, fail fast, fail forward. So the concept of this is that we do all make mistakes, you know, if you don't ever make mistakes, you're playing it too safe. And so, you know, in the sort of commercial sense, you've got to take risks in order to get those rewards. And I think that, again, lawyers are probably almost preconditioned to being scared of making mistakes. I still remember when I was a newly qualified lawyer, professional support lawyer in the firm, I was in saying to the trainees, if you ever get to a point in your career, where you're not terrified, then you’ve become far too complacent.
Scott Brown (23:14)
You're so nice!
Martin Nolan (23:20)
I mean, they were formidable professionals were lawyer very, very good. And delivered excellent training to those people. But I did also think like, wow, like living your life on the edge there. You know, mistakes happen. Everyone screws up, you know, hopefully, not all the time. But they do happen. The key is, and this is the field forward, but is actually learning from your mistakes and trying to not make them again. So, you know, the first part of this is, is really acceptance, like, you know, if you're in a hole, stop digging, you know, waste an enormous amount of time where people are not prepared to admit that they're wrong. I would say I take pride in admitting when I'm wrong, I don't think my husband would necessarily agree with that point. But in a work context, I do you know, and actually, I think there's a degree of probably power actually, in accepting when you're wrong, like people, I think, respect what you try and take yourself further into a situation. But the this, I suppose the skeleton at all is reflecting on what landed you in that situation, and what you can do to avoid it again. And that's how people actually propel themselves forward, everyone makes mistakes. And if you're in an environment where people are completely intolerant of that, then that That, to me is not an environment in which I will be particularly happy. You've got to be able to, you know, make those mistakes as you grow, you know, and that, again, is how you propel people forward. So you know, take the take the negative in that and turn it into positive for yourself and for the people around you. And it's all it's all in how you recover from these things as well. How do you solve that mistake? Again, the fastest way of solving it is by admitting you've made it in the first place.
Scott Brown (25:00)
It sounds about right. I think, yes, it’s self-awareness to some extent, but having a culture where there's no fear of failure is just, I think, important in loads of loads of industries. I think that's transferable?
Martin Nolan (25:10)
Oh, absolutely. And I think, you know, for lawyers like, again, it's probably it probably does come to that private practice thing around, is quite closely monitored. But there's some times I certainly felt at earlier points in my career, a sense of shame and fear if I got something wrong. And, you know, as a slight tangential story, but I tell the story quite a lot. That firm was the same professional support lawyer, I worked for a partner who was maybe a bit notorious for not being forgiving, let's put it that way. And can be a bit angry about things. And I'll tell you later, her was there no longer there. And I don't think they're a lawyer any longer. But the used to go absolutely ballistic, if anything ever went wrong, and would send really aggressive emails. And I'd like some of them do still stuck in my head. But basically, the firm name and his surname, were not stored in the Microsoft Outlook dictionary. So when sending an email and ran the spellcheck, it would always crop up, right. So you could hear beauteous typing. And then you'd hear this like, like, staccato, crying, as he was just finishing sending the absolute like rockets to your inbox. He's that he's, like, 10 feet away from me as well. So I would hear like the beauty of tapping the clicking and would just be waiting for it to appear in my right hand corner, block capitals. What the eff did you do this? Like, why? Why have you done this, and that I lived for years. Honestly,
Scott Brown (26:54)
it just did have to wind them up after a while. Well, actually, like I think if
Martin Nolan (26:57)
you if you're in fear of making mistakes, you probably make more as well, like is not supportive. You know, you become you become so consumed by that, that you're still scared to do something bad that you don't do things that are good,
Scott Brown (27:11)
so hilarious, but like look at like a bit older, a bit older and wiser now, like I think things when I was a trainee as well and just I'm like, I'd put it down now to something else at play. Yeah, not functioning
Martin Nolan (27:21)
well. Like it's, it's a shame. And you know, you're, you're a good person for time to sort of like empathise and find excuses for people just being bad people. But you, I always used to think there was an element where people saw as a rite of passage, like they've had a crap couple of years at the bottom of a hierarchy, they've made it to the top, and they're gonna make you feel like they fail. And that's, and I think that's a really outdated way of thinking because, you know, I imagine most firms have radically move forward in this sort of space and are much more supportive of junior people, and actually very keen to retain and attract and retain good talent. But, you know, at times, it just felt like going through that sort of law firm process was like, you know, going through a giant threshing machine. And you know, someone use this lane, like, I can't remember who it is to give them clear that but you know, law firms like to recruit well rounded people and then flatten them. That's, that's certainly why I felt like and it's only I suppose over the years, I suppose as I've learned these lessons that I've started to become more round again, in all senses so
Scott Brown (28:36)
Martin Nolan (28:40)
Total lack of exercise.
Scott Brown (28:43)
So I'll spring this on, you might have seen I’m asking everyone this series as well to come up with a lesson that the they've learned and applied that they wish they had never learned during their career as a final sign off question.
Martin Nolan (28:57)
Okay. You know, the whole concept of once you see something, and you can't unsee it. Someone, I feel like maybe I'm just gonna embarrass, my brother, once said to me, he's also a lawyer. And he's a little bit older than me. And he once said that, if he's in a meeting, and someone’s asked him if he's got any comments, his response would be, I think there might be some tax implications. And he said, everyone in the room would just like nod and shut up and move on, um, in a way, like, it's always stuck in my head, because I always just think someone's gonna ask me that. Everyone's gonna ask you something. It's always there up my sleeve. And it's probably a bad thing, but it pops into my head every single time. Because it's almost a universal truth. Nobody knows whether there are or there’s not. So there maybe that should have been my first lesson how to build off your way.
Scott Brown (29:55)
Yeah, that's a good bluff, a cracker! Well, hopefully not many people listen to this and when you do have to have to implement it, it doesn't get called out!
Martin Nolan (30:07)
Either that, or I’ve just destroyed his credibility. I should say that he’s not a tax lawyer!
Scott Brown (30:13)
Same surname if you want to look him up! Well, thanks. Thanks for joining me, Martin, I really enjoyed our conversation. Cheers for being my guest. Great chatting.
Martin Nolan (30:23)
Thank you very much.
Scott Brown (30:28)
Thanks for taking the time to talk to me today, Martin, it was great to sit down with you and hear your unique take on things, really honest insights. It’s always good to chat to fellow Scott as well. If you've enjoyed today's conversation, then why not go back and listen to some of my previous guests. We've got an amazing back catalogue of guests from the series 1 to 3. Check out Alex Su, for instance, he's I'm sure you're aware Head of Community at Iron Clad. He's also a social media sensation on TikTok and LinkedIn. He shared that you should know your strengths and weaknesses when you're looking for a role and find a position and a company that best complements those, which I think is sage advice, and it really aligns with Martin's point today about authenticity. You can search for that episode on Apple podcasts, Spotify, and all the other good listening platforms or simply head over to heriotbrown.com/podcast. We recently made it to number 14 in the podcast charts for careers, a fantastic achievement for us in the team. And I really appreciate all of your support and all those that subscribe and regular listeners if you have any feedback, or if you'd like to appear on the podcast or suggest someone who you'd like me to talk to, then drop me a line there Scott at Heriot brown or come and connect with me and Heriot brown on LinkedIn. You know where to find us. Thanks for listening. See you soon.