Legal Insights and Beyond: A Journey with Felicitas

In this episode of Lessons I Learned In Law, I am joined by Felicitas Stern, General Counsel EMEA at Omni Bridgeway, a leading litigation funder. 

Felicitas made the switch to Omni Bridgeway when she was on the brink of Partnership in a top law firm in Amsterdam, where she practiced Real Estate and Construction.

She wanted more variety in her role and worked with a coach before deciding a move in-house was the next step.

Felicitas shares her motivations for moving in-house, the differences between working in a law firm and in-house, and the various lessons she learned throughout her career. 

We delve into how she made the career switch and some of the challenges she has faced in making that transition. We also cover some of the cultural differences across countries in legal practices, and Felicitas' personal journey from her native Germany to the Netherlands - so not one to be missed!

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Scott: So hi Felicitas. Thank you for Joining us on Lessons I Learned In Law.

[00:00:03] Guest: Thank you very much. And hello to you too.

[00:00:05] Scott: Thank you. Thanks for coming in. So we'll just start. If you could give us a because a bird's eye view of your current position and then keen to explore what got you there that. But if you could give us a bit of an overview.

[00:00:18] Guest: Sure.

 General Counsel for the EMEA region, Europe, Middle East, , and Africa. Basically, it's a funny general counsel position because I have two roles. On the one side, I support the business when we are drafting agreements, negotiating agreements, checking them before the business has basically authority to sign them.

So from a legal perspective, I have to make sure that all risks are covered in those agreements. And then the classical GC role by advising our board, our EMEA board on strategy risks that they might encounter in doing business, et cetera, et cetera. So it's really a diverse role, but also small things like sending small letters, to the Dutch tax [00:01:00] authorities or, looking at an employment contract from a colleague or even a lease agreement from a colleague that just moved here.

So it's, the full spectrum of legal questions that I can get. And basically it's always, if you don't get an answer anywhere else, ask legal.

[00:01:15] Scott: else, ask legal.

Oh that's, , yeah, good to be on speed dial. And so OmniBridgeway, what's the origin of the business and, it's function as

[00:01:25] Guest: Okay, OmniBridgeWay basically formed in its current form in 2019 when OmniBridgeWay the Dutch or European side merged with IMF Bentham and that's more the Australian and Asian side.

OmniBridgeWay in its origin was Yeah, how do I explain it to people that really don't know it? Looking at enforcement of awards that courts rendered, arbitration awards, , those things, buying sometimes loans from banks that they couldn't enforce anymore. Now we're a full spectrum legal risk [00:02:00] manager.

So what we're doing is indeed funding legal proceedings. So if you have a claim on another party, But you want to save your liquidity of your company, you can come to us and say, hey, can you fund my claim? Can you fund our legal costs, court fees, etc. We do that, but we also offer enforcement solutions, I would say, that if you have a court ruling or an award, that you can, You do not know how to enforce against your counterparty.

We can say take it over from you. We seize assets. We negotiate settlements. We make sure you get your money.

And that in the full spectrum from divorces to intellectual property to environmental damage. It's nothing is too crazy.

[00:02:43] Scott: So it's all claimant side.

[00:02:45] Guest: Sometimes even defendant side, but it depends. We do an assessment if it's worth the investment.

[00:02:51] Scott: Okay. And why on the defense side would it be, in what instances would it be worth the investment?

[00:02:57] Guest: If you have a counterclaim.

[00:02:58] Scott: Or

[00:02:58] Guest: Or if you think [00:03:00] that the claimant will not be awarded his claim. In certain jurisdictions, you then get awarded the court costs, you get damages, because you had to enter into legal proceedings that weren't justified.

[00:03:12] Scott: Okay. Patent litigation or something like that in the U.

S. where it's both sides, right?

[00:03:17] Guest: we do that law firm funding. So if law firms have certain portfolios of, cases, we sometimes fund the law firms themselves. We do liquidation funding. So if a company is in liquidation, but that might still have a claim on a director or former shareholder or whatever, we fund liquidators. ,

[00:03:35] Scott: Yeah.

[00:03:36] Guest: broad spectrum, diverse questions, definitely.

[00:03:40] Scott: And what, , that you've joined there, in the last year, but the coming together of the Australian and the Dutch business, how do you see that , as a relatively newcomer to the business is, does it feel like a Dutch culture or Australian culture?

I don't know. What's the.

[00:03:54] Guest: It's a good mix of both, actually. In Europe, we have several offices, so we don't only have the Dutch culture. [00:04:00] We have the London culture, German culture, Italian culture, French and Spanish culture. So it's really a mix, but we have lots of Australian colleagues in the Netherlands in our

[00:04:09] Scott: our office.

[00:04:10] Guest: So we get their culture.

What I kind notice is the Australian team has a little bit more structured. approach, more policies, more things of doing it in a structured way. We Dutch are more, okay, hands on, we just do it. And we'll get there no matter in what way. So I do recognize that we now have to follow those Australian procedures a little bit more, not only a little bit, but we have to follow them.

And that's still requires some adjustment from our Dutch colleagues.

[00:04:42] Scott: Okay. So a bit of a melting pot in the enemy. Yeah, nice. Yeah. Tell us a bit about your background prior to taking that role on the bridgery.

[00:04:50] Guest: On the Ridgway firm. Big law firms. , I studied in Tilburg, a university that's in the middle of the country that is not really that famous [00:05:00] for providing lawyers here in Amsterdam or at the big firms.

 I started in Rotterdam, At a Benelux firm, you could say. Started at M& A, Mergers and Acquisitions. Liked that, but then the company found out that I'm fluent in German. And lots of investors are German, investors in the Netherlands are German funds. So our real estate partner said, Felicitas, please come to our real estate department.

We really need you because you speak German and that's good for our clients. And I said I haven't done anything in real estate, but. Other than buying my own house, if you want me, okay, I'll come because I like it. And switching to real estate, I really learned it's basically comparable to M& A, but you actually see what you're selling and buying. And then I started working for another partner in construction, and that is something that I really loved. It's complex, it's challenging, but you see what you're doing because you [00:06:00] see the building being built eventually. So for over 10 years, I worked in real estate and construction. So many buildings here in Amsterdam being built, sold them, rented them.

It was awesome. From the first firm I moved to Loins Loef, it's a also Benelux firm. It was the best, or still is the best real estate firm in the Netherlands. And from there on, I moved to Ellen Overy and every time it was by way of a headhunter calling me, Hey, they want you. They let us know because you had them on the other side, that they on the one side really liked you and they hated you.

[00:06:36] Scott: And they

[00:06:38] Guest: they wanted you.

[00:06:39] Scott: Yeah good flattery. Yeah,

[00:06:40] Guest: Yeah. And then eventually at LLN Ovary, I was like, okay, I'm in a senior position here. I'm managing a team, six people, a couple of personal assistants.

[00:06:50] Scott: negotiating the same

[00:06:51] Guest: And I was like, okay, is this going to be the rest of my life? Basically negotiating the same type of agreements every time, already knowing what [00:07:00] kind of negotiation points will be discussed and.

It felt like there's not a lot to learn anymore. And next to that, I did a master of science in real estate, so more of the commercial side. I have to admit, I haven't wrote my thesis because that is something I really don't like, but, and I don't think I need it anymore. But there I saw that there is basically a whole other world outside of law and being a lawyer and that spiked my interest in how would it be somewhere in the business?

actually doing it and not only advising.

[00:07:33] Scott: Yeah.

[00:07:34] Guest: And that eventually made me decide to switch sides.

[00:07:38] Scott: Nice. Good. Yeah. It's common. You tipping point, like you said, looking into looking down the barrel and seeing, I'm not sure if that's what I'm looking for. Had you had any succumbents, client succumbents or anything up to

[00:07:49] Guest: No. So it was really 

[00:07:51] Scott: Yeah.

[00:07:53] Guest: bag entering into the firm. And those were also some concerns that my colleagues [00:08:00] apparently voiced when they hired me. Yeah, will she like it? Will she make the transition from being a lawyer? Because it's on the one side completely different. You're in the business, you're more of a support.

While GC is not that much of a support, but also advice. But it's a completely different dynamic.

[00:08:18] Scott: yeah.

[00:08:19] Guest: Your clients are your colleagues, basically, 

[00:08:21] Scott: that's

[00:08:22] Guest: and that's something you have to like, but it surprised me. It's really fun.

[00:08:27] Scott: Yeah, huge shift , cool. I'm keen to chat more about that as well. And that those things, but we'll jump into your first lesson. If you could share that'd be great.

[00:08:35] Guest: great. Lesson. Yeah, definitely. I think for starters, when they come from law school, it's always, yeah, I really had good grades, so I will be able to perform well as a lawyer.

[00:08:46] Scott: And

[00:08:47] Guest: good grades at one point, knowing the law, knowing your case law is just one thing, There's so much more, you have to be able to negotiate, you have to be able to read people and jump in [00:09:00] at the right moment, know when to be hard, when to be the pitbull, but also know when to be compassionate. So there's the part of emotional feelings that you have to be able to manage.

It's also being strong, you have to be strong because not everybody in the firm will be always nice to you. There will be moments that when there's, when the pressure is high, people get snappy. So you have to be able to deal with that and not. Take it personal.

[00:09:34] Scott: personally. Yeah. Where did you first see that or learn that?

I started

[00:09:37] Guest: I said, I'm fluent in German. I was born and raised in Germany. So when I came to the Netherlands, I had to learn

Dutch. And I know that I drafted, when I was a junior, I drafted a letter in Dutch and I made the same mistake five times. I was very consistent, definitely. But the partner came to me and he went mental and saying, I'm not here to correct your [00:10:00] spelling mistakes, so take extra Dutch

[00:10:01] Scott: extra Dutch lessons.

[00:10:03] Guest: I looked at him and I was like, I'm so sorry. The next day I enrolled for extra Dutch lessons, but he also came back to me yeah, I'm sorry. That wasn't okay what I did yesterday. But he had a busy day and I knew that.

I knew that. So that was basically a little bit of.

That push for him to snap and it was perfectly fine, but those things can happen. 

[00:10:25] Scott: So 

[00:10:26] Guest: need to have a little bit of, I would say in Dutch, a thick skin.

[00:10:29] Scott: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:10:31] Guest: You learn it along the way. Don't take it personal. And it's always also a way of training you because when you have a lawyer or a counterpart in negotiations, they're not always happy with you either.

They can be snappy or rude too. And then it's even worse when you show that you are hurt or if it affects your way of negotiating. Stay professional. Be able to just say, yeah, fine that you're saying it, but you don't get me with

[00:10:59] Scott: [00:11:00] Yeah. So you go in , from practiced in house, the difference between,

[00:11:04] Guest: practice,

[00:11:05] Scott: like in practice you're the service provider, you're the expert they're your clients, so you're on the same side. But, 

what

different mindset do you have going in there with your client's internal on the same page? Is there more comfort to be vulnerable and not knowing stuff versus in practice where you have to have the facade that, yeah, you fake it till you make it.

[00:11:31] Guest: in that sense. I was always honest towards my clients when I was in practice saying sorry, I don't know that. Let me get back to you. I think that rather prefer.

[00:11:40] Scott: Lawyers

[00:11:41] Guest: are honest and take a little bit more time to give the right answer than giving the wrong answer.

I think the big difference now I'm not in that sense obliged to do everything that my colleagues want me to because I have this role of saying sorry, we can't accept this risk. We're not going to do this. So yes, on the one side, I'm supportive. [00:12:00] I have to draft their agreements, review their agreements, help them negotiate, but I'm also the one that's saying we can go just along these and these routes, but we can't take this route because it imposes too much risk for our company.

So now I'm, in that sense, more the one that's giving the borders , and making sure that it fits within our framework of risk that we are able to accept. And that was something that when you're an attorney

law firm, you have to advise your client of the risks, but you're not taking the decision whether to take the risk or 

[00:12:34] Scott: Yeah. And 

[00:12:35] Guest: And that's what I'm doing

[00:12:36] Scott: now. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, you see the tip of the iceberg and then so in a litigation funder, The difference, like a lot of our listeners and guests, given our network, UK based, in the Netherlands and in continental Europe, it's quite, you go in house and you disbar, you come off the, yeah, is that the case even within a litigation funding [00:13:00] environment?

Yeah.

[00:13:00] Guest: same. Yeah. I'm not in that sense, a registered lawyer 

[00:13:03] Scott: registered lawyer anymore. And what's the rationale? I don't know.

[00:13:06] Guest: Basically for my firm, it's the costs and I don't need to litigate myself. I don't need to be in court. It would only be for certifying documents

[00:13:14] Scott: Okay. And

[00:13:16] Guest: we can do that through our lawyers that we engage.

So that's the rationale. But if I want to become a lawyer again, I can easily apply.

[00:13:23] Scott: Okay. So you can go back on. 

[00:13:25] Guest: Definitely.

[00:13:26] Scott: would be, so the primary benefit would be purely litigation you could represent in court. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:13:31] Guest: Yeah. And certified documents that are true.

[00:13:35] Scott: Yeah. It's just not something that's just common in the UK system. Yeah, , interesting difference. 

 German background by origin. Move to the Netherlands

[00:13:43] Guest: When I was 11 years old, so well, quite early, but still at an age that you already pick up the German habits and the German way of communicating and dealing with things. It wasn't always easy in the Netherlands.

I can honestly say that. I still have a little bit of an [00:14:00] accent. So when I'm speaking Dutch, you hear that kind of accent where people say, are you from Belgium? Are you from Germany? Are you from the South of the Netherlands? We can't really. 

[00:14:11] Scott: point towards 

[00:14:12] Guest: the direction where you're from. and yeah, I still have that a little bit more direct way of reacting sometimes that the Dutch people they say the Dutch are direct.

[00:14:23] Scott: Yeah.

[00:14:25] Guest: But the Germans can be too, and maybe even a little bit more harsh than the Dutch. The Dutch are the honest ones. The German can be a little bit more harsh.

[00:14:33] Scott: All right. Okay. Interesting. Yeah. I'll wait to learn that firsthand at some point. , maybe, but yeah, I'd say the. The Dutch directness is definitely something I've encountered in living, everyday living as well as work. It's an experience.

[00:14:47] Guest: can

[00:14:48] Scott: getting to know the different cultures.

 And both, and parents German or 

[00:14:52] Guest: my father was Austrian and my mum is 

[00:14:53] Scott: Dutch. Okay. 

[00:14:54] Guest: And I always say I was the accident in the middle.

[00:14:57] Scott: Ha.

[00:14:59] Guest: was an [00:15:00] accident. I can honestly say my parents were really happy, but my father was on his way to the Netherlands. My mom was already living in Germany and eventually, sometimes it happens. My parents split. My father moved back to Austria. My mom moved with me to the 

[00:15:13] Scott: me to 

[00:15:14] Guest: That's how I ended up

[00:15:15] Scott: I ended up here. The rest of the business trying to get a picture of what that business looks like.

And, , there. So how is it hung together?

[00:15:24] Guest: Okay. What our business is made of is basically our investment managers.

Investment managers. Almost all of them are former lawyers, litigators, but they, I think, were either fed up with always fighting, always pleading, whatever. I don't know. But our investment managers go out, make connections, talk to lawyers, talk to potential clients of ours, see if they can get in our investments.

Then we have an entire team that does asset tracing. So once we have a client, we're looking, okay, is [00:16:00] there actually something with the defendant that we can liquidate, that we can get the money from? So they're tracing all over the world, other ships, planes, houses, shares, whatever that's basically worth some money.

We have our pricing and structuring team that are former bankers. , or analysts that see, okay, if we get this case, let's see how long will it take? How much do we have to invest? What will be our return? What does our return need to be? So they're basically the number crunchers. Our investment managers then do due diligence.

They're looking into the cases, sometimes engaging other lawyers. We need legal opinions. Lawyer, do you think this is a good case to invest in? What do you think the chance of success is? Those things, and then we invest in them, and then our investment managers manage those cases. We need to discuss with the lawyers what's the strategy of court proceedings.

Are we going to take these and these steps? Are we going to take injunction measures, yes or [00:17:00] no? Are we going to free some assets, yes or no? Of course, those will be done by the lawyers. Our investment managers are more high level in that sense.

They're still in that case, managing that case for 

[00:17:10] Scott: us.

[00:17:11] Guest: So that's basically our business.

[00:17:14] Scott: brilliant. And are those people, all the investment managers, do they have to have a legal background? Do they have to have been ex lawyers, litigators?

[00:17:21] Guest: We have some in the UK that are not ex litigators, definitely not. But mainly, or in the rest of Europe, they're basically all formal lawyers. Okay. Yeah. Yeah,

[00:17:32] Scott: It's a career path that I don't think many lawyers would ever, consider it or know that, maybe know too much about it and know that it exists. Those litigators, I dunno if you've spoken to any of them, did any, was any of it a conscious reason or a conscious decision to get out of law?

And this was an avenue that the,

[00:17:51] Guest: Some say indeed that the pleading and basically also doing the same every time and time again with cases because yeah, you draft, you're rid of summons, [00:18:00] you prepare your court hearings etc, repetitive work, and there's nothing really commercial in it. And with. 

[00:18:08] Scott: Our investment 

[00:18:08] Guest: managers, they are also on the commercial side. They also have to discuss with pricing and structuring, how are we going to structure it? But of course they need to have a sense of, is this litigation case going to be successful? Yes or no. So they need to have a sense of how you would structure that case if you were the lawyer.

That's why they're former lawyers, but now they're busy with so many more things. And also. Way more on the acquisition side. They go to conferences, they fly around all the world, the entire world to go to conferences in Lisbon, Paris, some in America, some in Singapore, I don't know where, to make contacts.

[00:18:47] Scott: Yeah.

[00:18:48] Guest: And that's also the fun part of their job, probably. Tiring, but fun. You're not the one that's sitting in the law office and only writing the writs or only writing the pleading [00:19:00] notes. You're actually out 

there.

there. Yeah. bringing it into selling.

et cetera, et cetera. Way more negotiating, I think.

[00:19:07] Scott: not

[00:19:08] Guest: Settlements. But you're not actually

[00:19:13] Scott: court. Yeah.

[00:19:15] Guest: in court.

[00:19:16] Scott: Yeah, so yeah, best of both

worlds 

[00:19:20] Guest: For some, 

[00:19:20] Scott: for some people. Yeah, it's, it's nice. I think 

lots of recruiting lawyers in how she speak to so many people in practice that are looking for something different outside the box. I was there myself. So yeah, no, , it's great. Great to learn more about it.

 We'll move on to two.

[00:19:35] Guest: In law, you can make mistakes, definitely. I just gave the example of that little spelling mistake I made and nothing went wrong. I still got my offer to become, , an associate and not only a junior associate.

[00:19:49] Scott: Don't

[00:19:49] Guest: take things too harsh when you get feedback from your partner or from your senior. But, enjoy that they are taking the time for you to actually check your work and learn from [00:20:00] it. Learn from clients. Say to them, Hey, sorry, I don't know anything about it. Can you explain it a bit more? , that is when I really, Discovered the commercial side of real estate, for example, I was on this one transaction negotiations where my client was this highly skilled, intelligent commercial guy developer, and he was just throwing the numbers on the table.

And I was like, Hey, wait a second. I want to learn. Why are you able to. Say, between this range and this range, we can accept 

[00:20:31] Scott: it. 

[00:20:32] Guest: And he didn't mind explaining it to

[00:20:35] Scott: me.

[00:20:36] Guest: You can be curious and enjoy the ride and Don't, stress out, is this really good enough? Will I ever make it? Lots of juniors setting the bar so high by now.

Yes, you have to be good. Yes, you have to be secure. That is one thing. But you don't have to know everything. I've met partners that are commercially really good, but when it comes to [00:21:00] knowing your case law, knowing the law itself, they were

[00:21:04] Scott: crap. Yeah, yeah. So

[00:21:06] Guest: Yeah, just enjoy the ride and see where it ends.

[00:21:11] Scott: what part of the journey in your career have you enjoyed the most?

[00:21:16] Guest: Oh, good question. I think doing new things every time until that kind of wasn't really the the case anymore. Getting a new project and drafting an agreement where you have no clue What it actually needs to be eventually. And just having to figure out

[00:21:35] Scott: how

[00:21:36] Guest: you structure certain projects and learning something new every day, but that's for me.

And that's why I chose to make the step now in house. I want to learn new things. My fear is somehow getting stuck in a job where every day feels like you're doing the same repetitive thing. and sometimes also the unexpected things. We just talked about. This booking. com [00:22:00] building, I sold that and rented it back for booking.

And somehow in the middle of that transaction, my partner got sick and really hospitalized, so he couldn't do anything anymore. So I was the one that needed to make all the decisions and really. lead that deal. And it was Europe's biggest deal in that year. And I was like, Oh, gosh, can I even do that? And that was then something that made my heart beat faster, because I know, okay, if I make this, it's one of a kind deal.

It's not the easiest negotiations were hard.

[00:22:30] Scott: if I

[00:22:31] Guest: But if I make it, I did something new I've never done before.

[00:22:34] Scott: before. Yeah,

[00:22:35] Guest: And that's basically my journey. And after that, I was like, Yeah, okay. And now, There's nothing left 

[00:22:39] Scott: okay, and now there's nothing left anymore. There's no bigger building than

[00:22:44] Guest: No, not in Europe, I think right 

[00:22:45] Scott: Not in Europe, I think. No, it's impressive. It is impressive. So yeah, just keen to unpick a bit more about , that move then. And As I said, , it's

[00:22:54] Guest: a left field in terms

[00:22:55] Scott: On the face of it, quite left field in terms of making that switch from being real estate [00:23:00] construction focused.

 Move would be into a construction business or developer or that space. So

[00:23:06] Guest: Yeah.

[00:23:06] Scott: keen to again, speak to loads of people that are looking for that switch and mixing things up, whether it's industry or, something new. So how did that come about?

[00:23:15] Guest: I spoke to developers and construction companies and real estate investors when I was looking around joining in-house.

But basically there I would also be doing the same, negotiating lease agreements, sale and purchase agreements, stuff like that, because you're legal. You're not the development manager or whatever.

[00:23:34] Scott: And

[00:23:36] Guest: And that was something that I wasn't really interested 

[00:23:39] Scott: in. 

[00:23:39] Guest: If I would have joined a construction company or developer, it would have been more in the commercial side, but there I didn't have the papers for.

[00:23:48] Scott: Yeah. So

[00:23:50] Guest: it was like, okay, I need to make a step into a new business, into a new field, something I haven't done before. And a law firm definitely provides you with the [00:24:00] skills to learn things quickly, to think strategically. And not only, okay, you're the hyper specialist, but you get so many more skills than only knowing that piece of law that you are capable of switching to a completely different field and getting to master that field quickly. So it's also a. way of thinking that you learn and that helps you in house when switching the business and this business is something where I felt, okay, now I can finally contribute to society. Lots of people think litigation funders aren't those sharks because they take a percentage or a part of your Claim eventually.

Yes. And no, we also fund a lot of people that without our funding, wouldn't even be able to pursue that claim. So it also provides for access to justice. And that is something that really spikes my interest. And that really feels for me like, okay, now I can give something back instead of making more [00:25:00] money for those developers and building a more beautiful building, I'm helping that.

woman that is getting divorced and her husband has all this money and she has none.

[00:25:09] Scott: Yeah. She

[00:25:09] Guest: She needs to get her part of what she's entitled

[00:25:13] Scott: Yeah, there's mission

[00:25:14] Guest: Yeah. So that is something that really

[00:25:16] Scott: Mhm.

[00:25:17] Guest: Gives a good feeling, and that was something I also felt was necessary to keep me interested again.

[00:25:22] Scott: it fresh.

Yeah. How long did the, how long did yeah, 

[00:25:25] Guest: realizing

[00:25:26] Scott: realizing that I don't see myself, in the next 20 years in partnership in a law firm, how long did it take from having those thoughts to, making the 

[00:25:35] Guest: switch?

Oh at the beginning of last year, I, Engage the coach to actually look at, okay,

[00:25:42] Scott: so I

[00:25:48] Guest: a partner at a firm? And I had my offer to become a partner at a firm, but is that going to make me happy? So I took a coach and discussed with her, what are the things that [00:26:00] provide me joy and energy when working?

[00:26:02] Scott: working.

[00:26:03] Guest: so the Ikigai principle of that Japanese island, where you have to find something that really makes you happy, but also supports you. We basically worked on that basis to identify those things that were most important to me. And it wasn't salary. It wasn't getting the salary of a partner or making more and more money.

It was being able to learn something new every day. So in the summer, I actually took the decision

I'm

not going to go to a law firm.

[00:26:31] Scott: law firm, I'm not

[00:26:32] Guest: going to be a partner. And then it was fairly quick. I saw this position, I had something like, yeah, that's it. And it was through a headhunter. And I wasn't even invited to the first interview.

[00:26:44] Scott: to the first interview. 

[00:26:46] Guest: I didn't have any in house experience. Yeah.

[00:26:50] Scott: So it go on then? Eventually run its course then? And how did you convince them?

[00:26:54] Guest: The funny thing was, when I was speaking to that headhunter, she gave me tips on how to structure my resume a little [00:27:00] bit 

[00:27:00] Scott: better. eventually she called

[00:27:01] Guest: And eventually she called back and she said yeah, they have a couple of candidates that have experience, but still they can't forget your resume and they can't forget. Yeah. They still want to see 

[00:27:12] Scott: you 

[00:27:13] Guest: because they spoke to all those candidates that they had, but you stuck. So I think. something that Pikes interest in a resume can still open doors.

[00:27:26] Scott: Yeah.

[00:27:27] Guest: And then I had my first conversation. I just went in. I said, yeah I'm sorry. I have these more than 10 years experience as a lawyer, but I know I'm a fast learner. And what is what you get. I said that the energy that I'm showing here is the energy that I have. And that was eventually their reason.

to take me because I have this energy and this drive and I like to learn new things instead of a person that I know everything and we're doing it my way.

[00:27:54] Scott: I think that getting that opportunity to pitch and sell yourself face to face and in [00:28:00] front of the right people, that's the big challenge and the big hurdle, right?

So you need the representation. So sounds like headhunters done a good job there and the CV as well. So

shout out to them. What other advice for someone in that position? Again, it's looking to switch industry or. What would you give, what would be the one piece of advice you would give to someone looking to make that

[00:28:20] Guest: position? Just try it. Yeah.

Just try

it. 

[00:28:23] Scott: Yeah.

[00:28:24] Guest: Huh. Don't be afraid.

[00:28:25] Scott: firm is

[00:28:26] Guest: The law firm is a big bubble. Yes, you're really pampered there. Probably a high salary, lots of nice, how do you say it? Parties, events, whatever.

getting back some peace of mind and some more free time can also provide for that, and it's just doing it because honestly, two months, it's after I started at the firm where I'm right now, I already got the first headhunter again.

Hey, do you want to join this real estate law firm?

How is it in house? Are you already fed up with 

[00:28:58] Scott: it? 

[00:28:59] Guest: So if [00:29:00] you really don't like it, you can always go back.

[00:29:02] Scott: Yeah. Yeah. What's the worst case scenario? It's always 

[00:29:04] Guest: scenario, you can go back. Yeah. So just try it. And it wasn't just one headhunter that asked, do you want to come back?

Come back to law and Basically, it was the best decision I've made. 

[00:29:15] Scott: yeah, But

 To know it's there at some point if it ever happens and the notion takes you. . So on to, to lesson three,

[00:29:23] Guest: You often think in law firms, you're doing the complicated stuff. You're drafting the complicated agreements because that's why your clients are coming to you or you're doing the complicated litigation cases. But being in house, you're also confronted with complicated things.

Maybe not even from a legal perspective, but sometimes from a political perspective, or even from a, from an economic perspective. And that's a new challenge. And that is also something that can be really interesting and rewarding. Yeah, it was rewarding for me when clients came to me and said you really did a good job [00:30:00] and thank you very much.

But it's also rewarding to me when my colleagues say to me, thanks Felicitas, thank you for responding so fast, thank you for helping me out. And that's the same feeling that you can get when you're working in a law firm, getting that reward from your client. That is also what I learned now from this transition.

I'm being challenged in many different ways right now. Also from a legal perspective, because honestly, I wouldn't have thought about thinking how German law would work. And for the first time, I heard of Champerty and Maintenance. Never heard of that before. It's a UK principle. Those things that I'm like, okay, there's something new I'm learning again.

And that's challenging sometimes. 

[00:30:49] Scott: Keep you on your toes. 

[00:30:50] Guest: definitely. So

[00:30:52] Scott: if lawyers

[00:30:54] Guest: also in senior positions at law firms think, yeah, but going in house will be less challenging because the [00:31:00] really complicated stuff I'm going to send to another law firm. No. There are other things that are challenging. And yes, now I'm on the other side, instructing law firms to provide me with their work.

And that's also really fun sometimes. Yeah.

[00:31:16] Scott: Yeah. Be the one doing the kicking. People up.

[00:31:19] Guest: Definitely.

Definitely. 

Of

[00:31:21] Scott: GC of EMEA, we've touched on there about the, the different countries and systems coming up and, I guess one thing that strikes me, like the cultural differences in jurisdictions to litigation funding and like, how is Europe different to the US or to APAC?

Is there a regulation, is there much exposure to what the, enforceability, does that differ across the globe?

[00:31:45] Guest: and no. America is a more competitive market, I can honestly say. So there, I think it's more in actually getting the cases, the difficulty in actually getting the cases.

 [00:32:00] They are also a step further down the road in certain regulations, for example,

[00:32:05] Scott: about

[00:32:07] Guest: Disclosing our funding agreements in cases, that's America. The counterparty wants to know, do we have a funder? Yes or no. What are your funding terms? We're not that far in Europe yet. On the other side in Europe, we have certain countries where, for example, class actions are way more.

common than in America or in APEC. Australia, on the other side, I think is the front runner in class actions. The Netherlands is really, , following them. And then we have the UK. And of course, mainland Europe is still more regulated by the EU than the UK. Common law, civil law, things you notice are big differences.

Some things that we can do here in civil law countries we can't do in common law countries and vice versa. There are tiny details that differ. , Germany is in a sense, [00:33:00] More like the UK in actually getting control over proceedings, the Champity and maintenance principle.

I think in general the overall position towards litigation funding is good.

Parties support it. Also, governments see more and more that it's necessary to provide for access for justice. For example, if you as a consumer would be standing up against Apple, good luck. They have the deep pockets to get the expensive lawyers. You can't. Yeah. And that's basically the same with little businesses.

You have your patent or other intellectual property rights and some kind of big company infringes on them, good luck, they have the deep pockets to keep you in litigation until you're

[00:33:47] Scott: Yeah, and crush. Yeah.

[00:33:49] Guest: course. Yeah.

[00:33:50] Scott: yeah, it's something that, it's like you said, it's mission, aligned.

So it's that, , I can see how that gives, it gives a lot of energy.

[00:33:55] Guest: On the other side, of course, there are voices that kind of call [00:34:00] for regulation that we do not take too much eventually that our clients are left with nothing. Do we need that? Yes and no. It depends. But this interesting field. It's quite new, of course.

Litigation funding is only like existed from the eighties.

[00:34:17] Scott: Yeah.

[00:34:18] Guest: It's new. So there is not that much legislation on it yet. 

[00:34:21] Scott: Some 

[00:34:22] Guest: are still discovering, do we need it, yes or no? 

[00:34:25] Scott: And 

[00:34:25] Guest: interesting. There's so much in development right now. Yeah. I'm quite curious where it goes, where we're in 10 

[00:34:31] Scott: years.

Yeah. See how it grows. Yeah, that's from the 80s and it's big of market. It's pretty cool. Yeah. Thank you , for sharing lessons the journey into the in house role.

Sounds like a really exciting time.

[00:34:39] Guest: Definitely. And I loved it. Thank you very much for having me.